lategame balance . are my concerns true ?

[Boron]

Graeme Dice said:

The devil also has a tail that gives it a second attack.

yeah but it is -2 damage or something like that .


i would like to know though because it does paralyzing damage what this effect does ?




that the vampires are undead is probably their great weakness . but if it forces your opponent to consider some wither bone mage squads when you mix in then something different it is good too .


since the vampires + the devils are more or less generated for free they are special .
you can get no other quite good summon in this numbers so cheap .

they are both excellent fodder at least .
the devils are toughter true but the vampires on the other hand can luckily kill perhaps a few scs and quite reliable thugs .
if you enemy considers really casting lots of wither bones this is even greater because your other troops mixed in are then not targeted at all .

[tinkthank]

Boron said:

true but marignon is relative 1 dimensional and hard to play .

in the mp games i have played until now or are playing marignon was never a top 5 choice and i never saw them winning a mp game in which i am in so far .

Hey Boron, I agree with almost everything you have said and analyzed here. Caelum and Abysia incredibly strong late game with these strats.

But... didn't I beat you in an MP game with me playing Marignon?

[Boron]

tinkthank said:

Hey Boron, I agree with almost everything you have said and analyzed here. Caelum and Abysia incredibly strong late game with these strats.

But... didn't I beat you in an MP game with me playing Marignon?

lol yeah sure but this is what i have said anyways
i said marignon will probably rush 1-2 opponents to death but then a stronger opponent will kill you in mid-lategame anyways


since in a 2 player game on urgaia i am the only opponent this is different though


it is for games with 1-4 players and less than 100 provinces vanheim , marignon , ulm etc. are extremely strong .
in midsized games like inland they still have a good chance but it is already quite hard to win with marignon especially there .

in orania / karan / faerun / world map etc. it is almost impossible to win with vanheim / marignon etc .
the good thing though is that if you take d3 on your pretender midgame with spectres even marignon can reach enough magic flexibility to start clamhoarding / fetish hording / blood hunt etc.


so with getting magic flexibility by opponent rushing and getting their searched provinces and then midgame relying on spectres/indy mages for flexibility even marignon is probably quite good lategame too .

i think though vampires are strong and so are devils as graeme pointed out i saw it all in all though a bit too narrow .

marignons knights of the chalice + flaming arrows x-bows are quite dangerous too .
sure especially by lightning battlemagic they get killed quite well .

but vampires get killed by wither bones quite well .

devils get killed quite well by staff of storms + wrathful skies + lightning battle spells .



so everywhere is a counter .


the only thing which makes vampires so special is their immortality .

in a 1on1 they lose though probably against fire blessed knights of the chalice / vans too .


the only "sad" thing is that most national troops are kinda useless .
all archers with wind guide / flaming arrows are not bad , but friendly fire is an issue .
most blessable troops are good , expect vans + were jaguars all are capitol only though afaik .

finally the berserk troops ( minotaurs ) and jotunheims troops because they are so tough are good .


almost all other troops are somewhat really bad though which is about 3/4 .
as pickles said in the other thread as ulm especially i don't really care which of my 10 different HI's i produce since they are all very very similiar .
they are unfortunately though so slow that their use is anyway limited .
i prefer x-bows/sappers + knights over all kinds of ulm HI because the knights can luckily reach at least the enemy archers/mages with luck quite quick and the sappers/x-bows can do some damage .
the hi though is just too slow , gets decimated extremely by magic damage spells already earlygame , then is swarmed and routed .
enc 6-10 + move of 5-9 makes the ulmish hi ****ty.
att is "only"10 but with fatigue it drops a bit to 7-9 depending on fatigue .

so the ulmish infantry will be quite fatigued when reaching finally the enemy + be at least 3-4 battle rounds under full fire .
even early game a caelum army with just quickness + aim + lightning will decimate them pretty quick .
midgame either massfalsehorrorspawning or massorblighntnings will be a pain .

[Boron]

tinkthank said:

Hey Boron, I agree with almost everything you have said and analyzed here. Caelum and Abysia incredibly strong late game with these strats.

But... didn't I beat you in an MP game with me playing Marignon?

lol yeah sure but this is what i have said anyways
i said marignon will probably rush 1-2 opponents to death but then a stronger opponent will kill you in mid-lategame anyways


since in a 2 player game on urgaia i am the only opponent this is different though


it is for games with 1-4 players and less than 100 provinces vanheim , marignon , ulm etc. are extremely strong .
in midsized games like inland they still have a good chance but it is already quite hard to win with marignon especially there .

in orania / karan / faerun / world map etc. it is almost impossible to win with vanheim / marignon etc .
the good thing though is that if you take d3 on your pretender midgame with spectres even marignon can reach enough magic flexibility to start clamhoarding / fetish hording / blood hunt etc.


so with getting magic flexibility by opponent rushing and getting their searched provinces and then midgame relying on spectres/indy mages for flexibility even marignon is probably quite good lategame too .

i think though vampires are strong and so are devils as graeme pointed out i saw it all in all though a bit too narrow .

marignons knights of the chalice + flaming arrows x-bows are quite dangerous too .
sure especially by lightning battlemagic they get killed quite well .

but vampires get killed by wither bones quite well .

devils get killed quite well by staff of storms + wrathful skies + lightning battle spells .



so everywhere is a counter .


the only thing which makes vampires so special is their immortality .

in a 1on1 they lose though probably against fire blessed knights of the chalice / vans too .


the only "sad" thing is that most national troops are kinda useless .
all archers with wind guide / flaming arrows are not bad , but friendly fire is an issue .
most blessable troops are good , expect vans + were jaguars all are capitol only though afaik .

finally the berserk troops ( minotaurs ) and jotunheims troops because they are so tough are good .


almost all other troops are somewhat really bad though which is about 3/4 .
as pickles said in the other thread as ulm especially i don't really care which of my 10 different HI's i produce since they are all very very similiar .
they are unfortunately though so slow that their use is anyway limited .
i prefer x-bows/sappers + knights over all kinds of ulm HI because the knights can luckily reach at least the enemy archers/mages with luck quite quick and the sappers/x-bows can do some damage .
the hi though is just too slow , gets decimated extremely by magic damage spells already earlygame , then is swarmed and routed .
enc 6-10 + move of 5-9 makes the ulmish hi ****ty.
att is "only"10 but with fatigue it drops a bit to 7-9 depending on fatigue .

so the ulmish infantry will be quite fatigued when reaching finally the enemy + be at least 3-4 battle rounds under full fire .
even early game a caelum army with just quickness + aim + lightning will decimate them pretty quick .
midgame either massfalsehorrorspawning or massorblighntnings will be a pain .

[Schmoe]

Boron, I think you have a tendency to discount what your opponent can do too quickly. When you post a strategy and ask for a counter, usually you get three or four counters which you immediately dismiss with a counter-counter. In practice, I really don't think it's that easy. As others have pointed out, you are presuming turn 100 and having 50+ vampire lords and being able to push dominion. First of all, how did you get to that point? Opponents aren't going to idly sit back and let you collect vampire lords without doing something of their own.

You state that Flames from Afar or Murdering Winter can take care of opposing preachers, mages, etc. Well, the same goes for them, they can use either of those spells to decimate your leaders, too. You say you will protect yours with domes, well, your opponents can too. The point is, everything you say you will use to nullify your opponent's threats, your opponent can likewise use to nullify your threats. Because each side has limited resources, it then becomes a matter of which counter is used at which point in the game.

Having said that, I'm not trying to be harsh, and I hope that I never, ever, ever, face an opponent with 50 vampire lords.

[Kel]

Schmoe said:
Boron, I think you have a tendency to discount what your opponent can do too quickly.

This is the problem with with posing game balance changes based on theory that hasn't been adequately tested.

- Kel

[Graeme Dice]

Boron said:
in orania / karan / faerun / world map etc. it is almost impossible to win with vanheim / marignon etc .

Vanheim? What are you talking about? Vanheim is top tier.

but vampires get killed by wither bones quite well .

Don't bother with wither bones if your opponent is using vampires. Ice strike, falling fires, blade wind, since they all do the same amount of damage and cost less fatigue.

so the ulmish infantry will be quite fatigued when reaching finally the enemy + be at least 3-4 battle rounds under full fire .

We've already explained that marching doesn't cost fatigue.

even early game a caelum army with just quickness + aim + lightning will decimate them pretty quick .
midgame either massfalsehorrorspawning or massorblighntnings will be a pain .

Are you not planning to use any mechanical men or or clock wirk horrors, or any master smith's with blade wind?

[Stormbinder]

Aye, I agree with Graeme and other posters. There are many ways to screw pure vampires armies. They certanly have their uses, but I don't feel they are overpowered in any way, comparable to other end-games strategyies.