Need help with Man strategy

[Gandalf Parker]

deccan said:

I'm curious about this. I've often wondered, why use slingers at all as man when you have longbows? Sure, slingers are 7 gold apiece and longbows are 12 gold, but IMHO the difference in combat power more than makes up for it. Their range also gives them far better survivability (a def of 11 versus 8 helps too). Also, IIRC, longbows have strategic move 2 while slingers have strategic move 1.

It seems to me that the only use for them is as patrollers since they are the cheapest unit, both in gold and resources, that man can recruit.

It might be just my sloppy impressions. Someone can download the tiny-map and setup a simulation to test it a hundred times or so.

But my impression is that against things like elephants, 20 longbows just didnt have the same effect as 30 slingers. I dont mean in damage total but the enemy seemed to rout more often. Of like most things in the game its not an absolute but it is a good "plus" to figure in. Ive found that a unit with a "fear" ability or spell does very well when backed up by slingers.

Im known for experimenting with the "worthless" parts (pretenders, castles, units, spells, nations) of the game and Ive found that most of them have SOMETHING they can be used for.

[Arryn]

I think what Gandalf is observing is the employment of tactics designed to take advantage of the game's routing mechanism. As far as winning a battle, it's more efficient to try to force a rout than to attempt to outright destroy the bulk of the enemy. 20 archers may do more damage to a target unit than 30 slingers, but the 30 slingers can inflict more morale checks, thereby playing on the odds that sooner or later the unit's morale will break if you force enough morale checks. Especially since the unit's morale goes down the more hits it takes, even if the hits are otherwise ignorable scratches. Those scratches have a greater impact for routing purposes than they do for the unit's health.

It's not the death of a thousand cuts that should worry you, it's the fear of a thousand cuts. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img]

[Gandalf Parker]

Arryn said:
It's not the death of a thousand cuts that should worry you, it's the fear of a thousand cuts. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img]

Nice breakdown of the likely answer. Sounds reasonable to me.

And EXCELLENT final line. Very Sun Tzu

[Arryn]

Gandalf Parker said:
And EXCELLENT final line. Very Sun Tzu

Thanks!

You should see me when I'm Machiavellian. Or perhaps not. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon02.gif[/img]

[deccan]

Arryn said:
20 archers may do more damage to a target unit than 30 slingers, but the 30 slingers can inflict more morale checks, thereby playing on the odds that sooner or later the unit's morale will break if you force enough morale checks.

I agree that this sounds like the most reasonable answer. As I understand it, the mechanics of morale checks is relatively poorly known. I wonder if the amount of damage dealt makes morale checks more severe, or does all damage generate the same "quality" of morale check.

[Arryn]

deccan said:
I wonder if the amount of damage dealt makes morale checks more severe, or does all damage generate the same "quality" of morale check.

IIRC, this was answered by a dev, or perhaps Zen, a while ago but I'm too busy watching Jeff Foxworthy DVDs at the moment to bother searching for the thread. hehe

[Huntsman]

Gandalf, yes, I do like using stealth tactics and fully intend to do so in the upcoming game so please share your knowledge! In fact, I've decided to use the Tuatha theme to take advantage of the Glamour of those Sidhe infantry units which, I'm told, makes them even stealthier.

My plan thus far (for early game at least) is get Wind Guide and Flaming Arrow ASAP and use a combination of the Sidhe infantry with Longbows as the bulk of my armies, along with a Bard and Sidhe Champion for leadership support. I'll also send some raiding parties deep into enemy territory to disrupt things a bit.

Thanks for the info.

[Gandalf Parker]

Forester cheap sneak --- great patroller
monk cheap sneak --- can preach while hidden in enemy territory and can lead 10
bard cheap sneak --- can instill uprisings in enemy territory and can lead 10

have you chosen a pretender yet? Scales? Man/Sidhe is a good choice for blessings.
sidhe champion sneak mage&priest --- can lead 50
cu sidhe sneak fast sacred
doaine sidhe sneak sacred

Do we see a pattern yet? I cant believe how many people play this race without using the sneaks. This just wasnt created for "my army meets your army" type of play. Its made for "bring your army. my army is already past yours and headed to your inlands"

"Call of the Wild" can be used to take nearby provinces that appear weakly protected. Or bolster your troops in the field by casting it on yop of you. They can be good flankers set to attack archers. The wolves can be assigned to other commanders and the werewolf leader left there set to "summon allies" creating more of them every turn. Or you can use them as yet another sneak army wandering around.

"Call of the Wind" is easier for you to use but they dont sneak. They can fly so they have some range for jumping around the map. The birds can be assigned to a local commander and the leader reused. As a delivery for equip, gems, slaves. Or give them an Amulet of Vengeance with orders to attack rearmost

[Zapmeister]

Gandalf Parker said:
Do we see a pattern yet? I cant believe how many people play this race without using the sneaks.

I can believe it, primarily because I've only played Man in a conventional, non-sneaky way, and been quite successful. Is the sneaking strategy competitive? Do you win with it? I ask, because I've never been in a game where that's been demonstrated (possibly because I've lead a sheltered life, but still...)

[Huntsman]

Gandalf Parker said:
have you chosen a pretender yet? Scales? Man/Sidhe is a good choice for blessings.

I've been trying a Golden Naga in my tests. Fire 4, Water 4 give decent bless bonuses for my Daoine Sidhe. The Defense +2 is especially nice since they have a base Def 15 to begin with. With Glamour and high Def they should make nice tanks.

I've been going with Dominion 6, Luck+1 and Magic+2 for Tuatha theme and Heat +1. SHould I go with Luck+2 instead of Magic+2? I like have "good" events but the extra Research seems helpful since I have to rely mostly on Bards w/Research 3 until I find a Library.

Which pretender build do you like?