Looking for help with SC pretenders

[JJ_Colorado]

Cainehill,

What do you mean that the Earth Mother is crippled by the way that trampling works? It seems really effective (trampling) in my experience.

Thanks,
John

[The_Tauren13]

I assume he is refering to the fact that giving her a hell sword or blood thorn is useless because she will trample rather than use it.

[The Panther]

Having played Dagon in my first MP game, I can say that trample fails miserably against SCs. He was fine clearing the level 9 indies, but was completely hopeless against the VQ. The VQ with the quickness and mistform never got run over. It always squirted away. Every single time. So the VQ just kept growing in HP as Dagon slowly died. Totally one-sided.

I am sure it is the same against any other SC who has quickness/flying/mistform. Trample has a pathetically low probability against these buffs. And it will never use the normal sword attack when up against a smaller opponent. Even against indies, dagon was always getting heavily fatigued while trampling. A reinvigoration artifact is an absolute must.

You simply cannot make a true SC who has the busted ability trample. Now, if there was a way to turn it off before a battle, than I would modify my opinion. Or maybe even if it was smart enough to actually do an attack rather than trying a completely hopeless trample a dozen times or more. But as it stands, trample loses to pretty much ANY other SC who is smaller in size.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

The Panther said:
I am sure it is the same against any other SC who has quickness/flying/mistform. Trample has a pathetically low probability against these buffs.

Nope, the big decider here is etherealness (although if the trampled has a lifedraining attack it's even worse). For the record, I saw an AI Dagon lose an arena dearhmatch to a Black Servant once.

Myself I learned the effectiveness of etherealness vs trampling the hard way in my first MP a few years ago, when I lost THREE Iron Dragons to a Dusk Elder and an etherealized Ghoul!

I still think trampling is great, it's just not great vs everything, so pick your targets accordingly. A trampling pretender should equip as many reinvigoration items as possible. Buying a few levels of death magic for Soul Vortex is also a good idea.

[alexti]

Nagot Gick Fel said:

Nope, the big decider here is etherealness (although if the trampled has a lifedraining attack it's even worse). For the record, I saw an AI Dagon lose an arena dearhmatch to a Black Servant once.

Myself I learned the effectiveness of etherealness vs trampling the hard way in my first MP a few years ago, when I lost THREE Iron Dragons to a Dusk Elder and an etherealized Ghoul!

Just a few days back I've learned that trampling is much more dangerous than I thought. Some crazy golem with stymphalian wings had nearly trampled my fully equipped wraith lord to death. The problem is that the trampling still causes the damage (1 hp) and the wraith lord doesn't have too many of them to start with and there's no way to replenish them vs Golem. My WL has barely get away with it, finishing the battle with only few HP left.

[Kel]

Tramplers don't swing their life draining weapons. Someone needs to invent life draining boots for them.

- Kel

[Cainehill]

JJ_Colorado said:
Cainehill,

What do you mean that the Earth Mother is crippled by the way that trampling works? It seems really effective (trampling) in my experience.

As others have mentioned, trample is ... less than effective against a number of opponents - ethereal for instance, and I believe it's not only against ethereal opponents.

And the real problem is that you can't do _anything_ about it. A unit that can trample, will trample, against anything less than its own size. So - as others mentioned, the nice Hellsword, or Bloodthorn does nothing for you, and it's not only the life-stealing weapons that are thus useless. Ember - nope, not going to get the 1-hex area of effect fire and cold attack. Ditto for other weapons.

Thus, a large trampling commander is screwed - it's okay for dealing with ... peasants, but, in my experience, loses to any halfway decently magicked combatant commander, simply because the trample doesn't work.

(For example: my scout watched _two_ very well equipped golems lose to one VQ. In fact - the VQ was unconscious, and the tramplers _STILL_ couldn't do anything to her - they'd trample, the VQ would shift about the battlefield in her sleep, and the golems kept losing fatigue until the VQ woke up and finished things. This, despite the fact that the golems had good weapons.)

[deccan]

Cainehill said:
(For example: my scout watched _two_ very well equipped golems lose to one VQ. In fact - the VQ was unconscious, and the tramplers _STILL_ couldn't do anything to her - they'd trample, the VQ would shift about the battlefield in her sleep, and the golems kept losing fatigue until the VQ woke up and finished things. This, despite the fact that the golems had good weapons.)

IIRC, the astral golem doesn't have trample innate right? Guess the lesson is it's a waste to give boots of the behemoth AND magic weapons to an SC.

[Arryn]

deccan said:
Guess the lesson is it's a waste to give boots of the behemoth AND magic weapons to an SC.

Or Boots and Stymphalian Wings.

[alexti]

Cainehill said:
(For example: my scout watched _two_ very well equipped golems lose to one VQ. In fact - the VQ was unconscious, and the tramplers _STILL_ couldn't do anything to her - they'd trample, the VQ would shift about the battlefield in her sleep, and the golems kept losing fatigue until the VQ woke up and finished things. This, despite the fact that the golems had good weapons.)

VQ is not in danger because of the regeneration, otherwise she would be risking to run out of HP (like what nearly had happened to my wraith lord). But of course, knowing what it has to fight VQ has little problems dealing with such golems, whether it is by Hand-Of-Deathing them or dusk-daggering or both.