Some ideas: raiding, seiging, spell AI and more..

[Soapyfrog]

You are simply being glib at this point.

So far I every game I have been in has been essentially decided on the issue of hording (clams or soul contracts) save for one, where clamming was not allowed... although even in that one were it to continue, soul contracts and fetishes would become the deciding items.

On medium to large maps which are my preference (as I like a long game with lots of maneuver), when I horde I do well, when I dont I lose. That is as far as it goes.

Maybe you have a different experience. It's possible. More likely you just horde along with everyone else... or, as you say, play on VERY small maps which are over in 30 turns.

[Graeme Dice]

Soapyfrog said:
You are simply being glib at this point.

No, I'm simply reporting game experience.

So far I every game I have been in has been essentially decided on the issue of hording (clams or soul contracts) save for one, where clamming was not allowed...

You've misidentified the cause. The cause was not hording of those items. It was the diplomacy that allowed those players to sit there in absolute peace and grow with no interruptions.

On medium to large maps which are my preference (as I like a long game with lots of maneuver), when I horde I do well, when I dont I lose. That is as far as it goes.

Then, like I said, you must be playing games where everybody sits there and stares at each other for most of the game.

Maybe you have a different experience. It's possible. More likely you just horde along with everyone else...

How would that be relevant, even if it were true?

[Soapyfrog]

Graeme Dice said:
You've misidentified the cause. The cause was not hording of those items. It was the diplomacy that allowed those players to sit there in absolute peace and grow with no interruptions.

You must be in some interesting games.

[Huzurdaddi]

Forge astral based items or alchemize them into other types of gems and use those.

Alchemize HOHOHO. Saying that is a better use of gems is retarded. And honestly it only is since you are going to death gems and death has some curiously cost efficient spells.

Sorry that's a *relly* bad answer.

As I have said before and now if commonly being accepted: the utility of hoarding is entirely dependant upon map size.

On Faerun and maps like it hoarding is essential. On Aran it is less of a facor.

[Graeme Dice]

Huzurdaddi said:
Alchemize HOHOHO. Saying that is a better use of gems is retarded. And honestly it only is since you are going to death gems and death has some curiously cost efficient spells.

The only spells that might be too cost-efficient for death would be Tartarian Gate, and that's assuming that you can keep Gift of Health active, or can keep wishing back the chalice every time someone steals it from you, and that you have a nature gem income that's high enough to cast gift of reason constantly. As for alchemizing, 10 casts of summon Lamias will would be a good use for 100 astral pearls, and would possibly be quite a bit more useful than a single doom horror that also requires 20 more nature gems. Or you could put those pearls into gift of health, or forge of the ancients, or haunted forest. All of which are more likely to have game altering effects than a doom horror.

[Soapyfrog]

Graeme Dice said:
The only spells that might be too cost-efficient for death would be Tartarian Gate, and that's assuming that you can keep Gift of Health active, or can keep wishing back the chalice every time someone steals it from you, and that you have a nature gem income that's high enough to cast gift of reason constantly. As for alchemizing, 10 casts of summon Lamias will would be a good use for 100 astral pearls, and would possibly be quite a bit more useful than a single doom horror that also requires 20 more nature gems. Or you could put those pearls into gift of health, or forge of the ancients, or haunted forest. All of which are more likely to have game altering effects than a doom horror.

Hooray for bloated gem incomes. Seriously you think this an interesting way to play?

In any case re: doom horrors I would love to hear how you would kill them so quickly and effectively. Frankly unless you get super lucky or have a serious mass of casters you are unlikely to be able to kill one, let alone two, or three, or four that you will quite likely encounter in a clam-hoarding game.

Since I have to fight doom horrors, I'd love to know what SPECIFIC counters you would propose to kill them.

[Alneyan]

My main concern on the matter of clams is the impact of their removal (or at least, their nerfing) on the nations for which clams are the saving grace. For example, while Arcoscephale or Pythium are likely good enough without clams, what about T'ien Ch'i? The Celestial Empire isn't exactly regarded as being the most powerful nation around, and reducing their access to clams will probably have a negative consequence on them.

It would be even worse for Spring and Autumn T'ien Ch'i, and possibly other nations/themes (R'lyeh? Atlantis? Pythium Serpent Cult? I am not a scholar on these). Magic sites remain a solution, but T'ien Ch'i is probably not among the nations with the means to lead the expansion race on its own, and its jack-of-all-trade mages are almost begging for these hefty items boosting their magic paths; since such items are quite expensive, clams are more than welcome here. And of course, Astral pearls provide these versatile mages with a more varied source of gems through alchemy; it isn't so good to have access to all the magic paths if you do not have a steady income to actually use all your nice spells.

[Graeme Dice]

Soapyfrog said:
In any case re: doom horrors I would love to hear how you would kill them so quickly and effectively.

If they don't have a lightning ring. Thunder strike and orb lightning. If they don't have a ring of fire, incinerate. If they don't have a ring of cold, frozen heart. Skeletons or lifeless troops will also work. Any semi-tough SC should also function quite well.