How to see whom I am at war with???

[Peter Ebbesen]

Arryn said:
Assume all you want. *I* enjoy writing UI code, and have done so since the late 80s. What's more, the part of writing UI code I most enjoy is precisely that which you claim the fewest enjoy: that of tweaking existing code. Moreover, I particularly enjoy rewriting other people's (bad) UI code.

Knew that that would get a rise out of you.

Your (false) assertions are refuted.

And impressively fast too. Well, it is my own fault for not specifically limiting the class of programmers to games programmers.

Joking apart, it is my experience with games programmers that many tend to think of time writing and tweaking the UI as a necessary evil, when what they REALLY want to spend time on is having the Orc kill the Elf in a sensible fashion rather than having it running into walls, dying of starvation, or causing fatal crashes when you least expect it. Everybody acknowledges that good UI is important, but as good UI (as opposed to "sufficiently good to work") is one of the hardest things to do right (assuming you have a decent spread of target audience for the game) and a time-consuming one as well, it is common to prefer spending time on tweaking game-engine code to see immediate results than on interface enhancements that may also require designer input and new graphics and often present minimal immediate benefit to the programmer. (In sufficiently small game companies the graphics designer might also be the programmer. In that case expect peculiarities)

Which is why sufficiently large games companies hire the dedicated souls who like to do it and hand responsibility over to people who are actually good at it, dedicating their time to interface issues rather than time sharing it with game-engine or component construction, while smaller companies have to make do with local talent - and quite often suffer from it.

Dominions 2 is a good case in point. Its graphics interface, severe micromanagement tedium in the mid-to-late-game, and in many ways unresponsive interface practically screams "written by programmers for programmers (and geeks)". As such, it is to be expected that the programmers of Dominions 2 prefer to do as little UI tweaking (which can take a lot of time for little tangible benefit to their own enjoyment) while instead tweaking spells, units, items, and killing off occasional bugs.

[Arryn]

Peter Ebbesen said:
Knew that that would get a rise out of you.

And impressively fast too.

Careful, lest I set one of my fawning, yet disgruntled and reluctant minions upon thee. (I'm sure the minion in question knows of whom I speak.)

Your reasoned defense is a nice save on your part, after cramming your foot so far down your throat you must have gotten a tummy-ache.

As for geeky game designers prefering tweaks other than to UI as being more enjoyable, that's such a short-sighted attitude. It too readily dismisses the annoying tedium of having to constantly deal with awkwardnesses that rapidly detract from the overall pleasure of other aspects of a game. Inconsistent controls, missing controls (Dom's lack of arrow-key support), poorly placed controls (HoI's tiny '+' controls placed dangerously close to delete controls), controls that aren't smooth (HoI's jumping sliders), controls that require excessive clicking (transferring large amounts of items/cash in Fallout), such things quickly earn the ire of all but truly rabid fans of a game.

[Cainehill]

Arryn said:
As for geeky game designers prefering tweaks other than to UI as being more enjoyable, that's such a short-sighted attitude. It too readily dismisses the annoying tedium of having to constantly deal with awkwardnesses that rapidly detract from the overall pleasure of other aspects of a game. Inconsistent controls, missing controls (Dom's lack of arrow-key support), poorly placed controls (HoI's tiny '+' controls placed dangerously close to delete controls), controls that aren't smooth (HoI's jumping sliders), controls that require excessive clicking (transferring large amounts of items/cash in Fallout), such things quickly earn the ire of all but truly rabid fans of a game.

Indeed. Something more programmers need to consider is that one hour of tedious UI programming on their part can save hundreds or thousands of hours of unpleasant tedium on the part of the Users. There's more than a few of these UI issues in Dom2, sadly.

[Arryn]

Indeed, Caine. Another aspect is that in software engineering there is a little-appreciated and even less understood concept called "usability testing", and one of the tenets of this is that you never let the programmers who write the code do that aspect of the testing. They are too close to their code both in terms of liking their design and familiarity with it to see what may be obvious to another observer. Ideally, you also do not let programmers write the requirements for an application. That should come from the people who will actually have to use the software.

Unfortunately, in the gaming industry (even more so than in other fields), devs set what features an app will have (regardless of whether it's what gamers want, ex: MOO3) and devs either don't test apps for ease of use or, worse still, ignore tester feedback (again citing MOO3 as the most egregious example of this). MOO3 is the poster child for what can happen when devs think they know better than their customers what those same customers want, and for how people with good intentions can create an unmitigated disaster. MOO3 released after HOI. HOI still sells copies today in stores. MOO3 cannot be dumped even at under $10. More telling yet is that HOI was still selling at full retail 6 months (and in some stores, 12-18 months) later, while MOO3 got returned to stores in droves and was put in the el cheapo bargain bins within just a couple of months (setting new records for the rapid decline of a game with a grade-A franchise). It short, MOO3 bombed. And it was so easily avoidable, but for developer arrogance.

Fortunately for us, IW at least listens. They still do whatever they feel like (IOW, they work on the features they themselves most want to see rather than what we most want), but compared to the rest of the gaming industry, they're wonderful, and they go out of their way to answer our questions and make us feel like they appreciate our business. At the other end of the scale are Atari and EA ...