OT: Debate

[AMF]

Over the past year I have come to beleive that, apparently, a majority of voters in the US are either

1) Intentionally ignorant - in that they consciously avoid learning the facts
2) Lacking in basic logic and reasoning skills (ie: stupid) - in that they cannot perform the most basic reasoning to understand where things have gone wrong and cannot but fall prey to the most base "big lies"

There are very few "laws" in international relations. One of them is that balances form against threats. The US is NO LONGER respected, or viewed as a "city on a hill" for other peoples and nations to aspire to, politically or otherwise.

The US is now viewed by the majority of people in the world as a greater threat to world peace than anything else.

This will inevitably lead to the abandonment/destruction of the post-WWII order which led to historically unprecedented economic and democratic growth worldwide, and the formation of international coalitions against the US.

Our children, and our childrens' children will reap the rewards of Bush's unilateralism and pre-emption. Never in the history of the US have we destroyed so much good will in so short a time for so specious a reason.

Having Saddam Hussein out of power is a good thing. The destruction of the entire post War system of alliances, friendship, and prosperity was not, and the cost of the latter far outweighs the benefit of the former.

Alarik

Ps: Because people will inevitably misquote me (for in the Orwellian environment in which we live in, where lies and stupidity are given more credence than the truth, and dissent is treason, to misquote is a weapon), let me just say that if this conversation had taken place a few years ago, I would have said nothing. I almost voted for Reagan, I would have voted for McCain or perhaps Bush senior, and I might have even given Bush junior a pass if he had changed or admitted even a few things - or got out from under the wings of the NeoCons. But the tactics, arrogance, underhandedness, and everything else that has ocurred has led me to the inevitable conclusion that we are at such a crucial crossroads in the history of the nation and the world that to not speak out now is a greater sin than to offend. So, sorry if I offend anyone. But not that sorry. Wake up and smell the danger lest we sit obligingly by while the world our parents built is lost to the worst reactionary dogma imaginable.

[Roanon]

I too am surprised how many americans are content with "Saddam is out of power and that is good" without asking what it has costed. Everyone seems to forget that Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 or WMDs, and with his actions Bush has not destroyed anti-american terrorism, he has effectively supported it.

The same holds true for these numerous new american laws to increase "national security". Is it really worth to gain a tiny bit of security (which is even debatable) when having to pay with for it with a lot of personal freedom? I always have thought freedom had a higher value in the USA.

The aim might be good, but thinking - does anyone do it? - must not stop there. History is full of catastrophies caused by people with best intentions.

[Will]

Well I was hoping this would stay on the topic of the debate itself... but I guess a degeneration into a discussion of politics in general is inevitable.

After letting the analysts have their time to think about the debate, I think it's a little bit funny that a lot of the more "conservative" outlets are reporting that the debate was a draw, while the "undecided" and "liberal" outlets are reporting that Kerry won. There's little said on Bush gems such as:

"I know how the world works!"

"Of course we're after Saddam. I mean bin Laden."

"We've aleady sanctioned Iran. We can't sanction them any more."

And the previously mentioned gaffee where he responded to a comment about dealing with North Korea and nuclear proliforation by saying "we must stay the course in Iraq."

Political beliefs aside, I fail to see how anyone can believe Bush did a good job in this debate with those blatantly obvious mistakes, and the less-than-Presidential reactions to Kerry's comments. Especially when the debate was centered on the Iraq War and terrorism, which are supposed to be Bush's "strengths". If he can't debate well on his strong points, what chance does he have on domestic issues?

[Roanon]

That is what I meant - people do not think about facts any more to arrive at a decision. So it does not make sense to make debates.
Most people have their political beliefs, like a religion, and no debate will change it, and even if one of the candidates would start growing horns and hooves and smell of sulfur the majority of his supporters would not budge. Idiots are ruling this world...

[EvilGenius4ABetterTomorro]

I though Bush looked like a chimp caught in the headlights. I thought Kerry looked like Frankenstein (but with the good brain)

I can't wait for the Edwards/Cheney debate. It'll be an Evil CEO vs. Slick Attorney man. I'm getting that oily feeling already!

[boran_blok]

I watched some exerpts (I live in europe, us presidential debates are not all that much news) and bush definetly looked kinda baffled at times by what kerry said, I think the man has a total belief in what he did was the right thing to do and anyone who thinks something else must have a completely skewed view of the world (at least that's my impression because nobody can tell so many lies and so much bull****, except when he is not aware himself it are lies or bull****.)

his spindoctors have done a bad job this time, I definetly expected him to do better.

[Raging Deadstar]

No Ammount of Spin doctoring can train a monkey to be an effective mouth piece

[Renegade 13]

I say we revolt! Vote for no one, depose Bush, execute politicians, and find someone who's actually qualified to lead a country! Who's that you may ask?? Well, me of course! I'd be quite happy to travel down to the States and lead your country for you. Oh wait, foreigners aren't allowed to be president are they? Damn...well we can change that. My first official act will be to surrender the US....to CANADA!! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Canada.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Canada.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Flag_Canada.gif[/img]

[Gandalph]

Roanon said:
Idiots are ruling this world...

Speaking of which, did anyone catch Bush's "As the leader of the world..." freudian?

[Arakiel]

Roanon said:
That is what I meant - people do not think about facts any more to arrive at a decision. So it does not make sense to make debates.
Most people have their political beliefs, like a religion, and no debate will change it, and even if one of the candidates would start growing horns and hooves and smell of sulfur the majority of his supporters would not budge. Idiots are ruling this world...

I don't agree. I was a Bush supporter before the debate. Mostly because Kerry is such a slimey little toad that I can't stand him, but after seeing Bush debate the "issues" I am firmly back into the Undecided camp. I mean seriously, how can you vote for a President that comes across as a nitwit who has trouble tying his own shoes. I can't take anything Bush or Kerry says at face value since they both lie their teeth out to get the job.

Just once in this country I'd like to have a president that I could vote FOR instead of one that i'm just voting AGAINST in a desperate attempt to avoid the inevitable.