A simple thank you

[Richard]

Arryn said:
"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

Arryn,

Morrowind and HOI are not niche games in the same way Dominions 2 is. HOI is wargaming lite, Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both. Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mattered to be good at the game. A traditional publisher would have advised Illwinter to take BOTH out of their game to reach a larger audience.

We have done the research, and yes I know Brad Wardell very well. In fact we have talked in the past about doing some of the very same things he is doing with his drengin network (now totalgaming.net). But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable. Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

And again we can't do both like Spiderweb for the reasons I stated above. It is either one way or the other for a variety of reasons.

Yes retail IS the enemy of niche products and complex games. In fact it is the enemy of PC games. PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement. We have intentionaly turned away retail offers from numerous companies based on our research on how retail affects your product line and profits. We also were in retail at one point with some of our previous titles (pre-Shrapnel) but we learned how bad retail is for most developers the hard way.

[Arryn]

First, Richard, thanks for your replies and for taking the time to make them.

Richard said:
HOI is wargaming lite

Careful. Did you intend to post flamebait for all the HOI fans that play Dom 2 (of which there are many)? HOI is no more "wargaming lite" than SE4 is a lite 4X game. HOI is a grand strategic wargame. Just because the scale is large doesn't make it any less of a wargame given all the work HOI's devs have gone through to try to model the setting for the game. Also, HOI and Dom 2 are both strategy games, and both are of comparable complexity. They just aren't complex in identical ways.

Richard said:
Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both.

It is. Complexity isn't measured solely by the user's interaction with the game. What's going on under the hood counts too. But I'm not going to debate this further with you as it's a tangent to the main point.

Richard said:
Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mastered to be good at the game.

As can be said of most good strategy games. Dom 2 isn't more complex than another of Paradox's games, Victoria, which is also sold retail.

Richard said:
But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable.

Thanks for this answer. May I ask why? Specifically, how is it that some other companies (such as Spiderweb) can make it work? What I'm trying to understand is what's different about Shrapnel, or IW, or Dominions that prevents it from being viable?

Richard said:
Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

True. But GalCiv is profitable nonetheless, and they have succeeded in doing what you'd claimed couldn't work. But I don't mean to rehash that. Now if you tell me that you cannot replicate their download method because Stardock subsidized the manhours that went into making (and maintaining) it using the income from their non-games, that I'd understand. Assuming that Shrapnel was open to the idea, though, would it be feasible to *license* their download technology so that you needn't reinvent the wheel?

Richard said:
PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement.

Which has to do with demographics of the buyers of most games, and the cost-savings of creating (dumbed-down) console games as opposed to costlier PC games (which typically have an older and more demanding audience).


Thanks again for your replies and for your time.

[Boron]

Arryn said:

As can be said of most good strategy games. Dom 2 isn't more complex than another of Paradox's games, Victoria, which is also sold retail.

I am a fan of Paradox games but Victoria is by no way as complex as dominions .
Warfare is more or less reduced to 1!!! unit like infantry with guards .
If you read the fanmade Victoria manual vickywicky and the economic model explanations on this page and a little bit the forum you know almost everything about Victoria .

After 1 month you know most important things about it while in dominions you even discover new things after almost a year .

Victoria has much more unneeded micro (pop / revolution management ) than Dominions but is not as complex . It is more a history simulation with focus on the economy .

[Arryn]

Boron,

It's obvious that in however little time you actually played Vicky you succeeded in learning very little about what the game's about, and what goes on "behind the scenes". Your summation of Vicky is tantamount to someone saying that Dom 2 just has magic item making, combat, and spellcasting. As we all know, Dom 2 is much deeper than that. So is Vicky, whether you appreciate it or not. I'm not going to waste my time (nor that of this forum's members) trying to educate you on just why Vicky is more complex than you realize. This isn't the proper forum for that. Paradox has excellent forums where I'm sure many many players would froth at the chance to set you straight were you to post there what you just posted here.

[Boron]

Arryn please try briefly .
I played Victoria excessevly about 1 month this maybe a bit too short but not much .

Really seriously : In Victoria you first try to setup your economy by building railroads , factories and upgrading pops .
I fail to see though how this requires a lot of skill ?
It is a lot of micro if you have a big country but after playing a bit each player knows which Factories are important and/or profitable .

Warfare is ultrasimple because this is not the focus of victoria . Though there are now about 30 different land units/brigade attachments you normally chose only 2-3 types so it is almost like in classical EU2 .

Then there is only left Diplomacy .


In Dominions instead you have really almost endless possibilities because there are so many viable strategies .
I think you can say Dominions is much deeper than Victoria though these games shouldn't really be compared .

[Boron]

Arryn said:
Boron,

It's obvious that in however little time you actually played Vicky you succeeded in learning very little about what the game's about, and what goes on "behind the scenes". Your summation of Vicky is tantamount to someone saying that Dom 2 just has magic item making, combat, and spellcasting. As we all know, Dom 2 is much deeper than that. So is Vicky, whether you appreciate it or not. I'm not going to waste my time (nor that of this forum's members) trying to educate you on just why Vicky is more complex than you realize. This isn't the proper forum for that. Paradox has excellent forums where I'm sure many many players would froth at the chance to set you straight were you to post there what you just posted here.

I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways .

[Arryn]

Boron said:
I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways .

1. Actually, it would take me more than 5 minutes.

2. I told you this isn't the proper place.

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

4. Trying to goad me into it won't work (for you, or anyone else). In spite of any mistaken belief to the contrary (based upon my past behavior) that you, Zen, or Archaeolept may have.

[archaeolept]

me? what did I do? :O


;-)

I mean, i didn't much care for battlecruiser 3000 i guess...

;P

[Boron]

Arryn said:

1. Actually, it would take me more than 5 minutes.

2. I told you this isn't the proper place.

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

4. Trying to goad me into it won't work (for you, or anyone else). In spite of any mistaken belief to the contrary (based upon my past behavior) that you, Zen, or Archaeolept may have.

Sigh .
I would have liked to discuss a bit about the complexity of Victoria compared to Domininions though .

So 1 Last try . You just write all the excuses because you know yourself that Victoria is by no means as complex as Dominions but don't want to admit that i am right once with this claim after the motto "every dog has its day" .

[Truper]

Arryn said:

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

Maybe you'd waste less time if you stopped repeating yourself.