Caelum vs. T'ien Ch'i

[PDF]

Back to the TC vs Caelum debate :
I mostly agree with the fact that TC mages aren't good, whereas Caelum ones are.
How to rebalance it ?
I think nerfing Caelum should be avoided, *but* A4W2 mages recruitable everywhere is damn too good ! What about putting their random in Sorcery only ? It's just the opposite of what Cainehill suggested, but it would make HS weaker indeed.
It's more complicated for TC : ok on having A2W1..etc rather than A1W2.. (which is just awfully ineffective) , but the S1 problem remains...

[Graeme Dice]

PDF said:
I think nerfing Caelum should be avoided, *but* A4W2 mages recruitable everywhere is damn too good!

So should C'Tis be nerfed as well? They have D4N1 mages recruitable everywhere, which is certainly more powerful than A4W2.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

PDF said:
It's more complicated for TC : ok on having A2W1..etc rather than A1W2.. (which is just awfully ineffective) , but the S1 problem remains...

I've pondered this for a while. Yet the only satisfying solution I've found so far would be to use the Magic Duel mod rather than mod the Celestial Masters.

[Zen]

Nagot Gick Fel said:
I've pondered this for a while. Yet the only satisfying solution I've found so far would be to use the Magic Duel mod rather than mod the Celestial Masters.

This doesn't unfortunately change the end result. Instead of having everyone with their sages killing them whenever they want, people will have to equip a pearl on their Sage to kill a Master.

I don't think an equitable soultion to TC is to have it cost 3 Pearl (at bad odds) for 250 Gold with a high chance of the first shot killing the Master. Not to mention that TC doesn't have the benefit of cheap national communion slaves (1/8) in order to try to circumvent some of that Astral weakness.

I don't think there is a good soultion while Magic Duel exists and is based off of pure Astral, unless you totally remove Astral from the CM or give them a significant amount.

[PDF]

Zen said:

This doesn't unfortunately change the end result. Instead of having everyone with their sages killing them whenever they want, people will have to equip a pearl on their Sage to kill a Master.

I don't think an equitable soultion to TC is to have it cost 3 Pearl (at bad odds) for 250 Gold with a high chance of the first shot killing the Master. Not to mention that TC doesn't have the benefit of cheap national communion slaves (1/8) in order to try to circumvent some of that Astral weakness.

I don't think there is a good soultion while Magic Duel exists and is based off of pure Astral, unless you totally remove Astral from the CM or give them a significant amount.

I agree, even "harder" Magic Duel will still kill CMs ...
What about giving TC a cheapo communiant - let's say some "Diviner", S1, Holy, cost ca 70-80 gold ?
This will put TC in a much better position when confronting Marignon, Arco and even Pythium, no ?

[deccan]

I've been fighting an AI Caelum in SP, and I just want to point out that Temple Guards are a damn good troop even if it is capitol only. In a cold environment, they have armor comparable to the best Ulmish troops. However, Ulmish pay for their high armor with atrocious defense, while Temple Guards do not, and they are sacred to boot.

I know that THE way to play Caelum is to make good use of their excellent combat mages, but I'm wondering if Caelum can actually out-Ulm Ulm if you want to play it that way. After all, Caelum has good, if resource intensive, heavy infantry in the form of Temple Guards and Iceclads, excellent missile support with "Wind Guide" as a starting spell, and Mammoths to mow down stuff.

[Endoperez]

Ah, I am still sorry that I didn't have time to multiplay Caelum in Dom:PPP, using Temple Guards as my armies... In Dom:PPP, they weren't restrited to the capitol, and although there were no blessing effects priests could cast spell giving sacreds +3Att +3Str, worth two sixes of DomII!

If Return of Raptors had some king of non-sacred, non-restricted but weaker and/or more expensive Temple Guard they would be much more interesting... Unfortunately, that won't happen unless the raptors punish caelumians by cutting their wings and somehow manage to still get them to fight on their sides...

[Vicious Love]

For once, haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if any of this has already been suggested. Haven't thought this through, either, so further apologies if any of this is... stupid. I'm not even convinced a nerf/buff is in order.

Base T'ien Ch'i is a model of centralization, and I really can't imagine them getting Celestial Masters anywhere save in their capitol. However, they're immensely big on the whole heavenly motif, and so it strikes me as odd that their CMs have only one astral. Even if the elements are fundamental components of divinity, you'd still assume a Celestial Master would have at least two points of the Celestial Path. They'd still be slightly less susceptible to dueling(Although still very vulnerable), and would have more firepower in a perfectly thematic way. If this is still underpowered, we could always throw in some'a them awesome multi-javelin ballistae, as a cost-efficient, high-resource bit of artillery to give T'ien Ch'i's army both added style and added clout.

In contrast to base T'ien Ch'i, I see little sense in S&A's Celestial Masters being capitol only. I mean, sacred bamboo grove aside, S&A is a time of magicians and nobles of immense power popping out of nowhere to do battle with their peers. Everything in S&A is a dime a dozen, and everyone knows kung fu. Besides, you've gotta give players some incentive to recruit Masters of the Five Elements.

Any of that any good?

[Tuna]

Endoperez said:
Ah, I am still sorry that I didn't have time to multiplay Caelum in Dom:PPP, using Temple Guards as my armies... In Dom:PPP, they weren't restrited to the capitol, and although there were no blessing effects priests could cast spell giving sacreds +3Att +3Str, worth two sixes of DomII!

heh, but why would you need them, considering just how effective lesser air elementals were in the game...