Really big games Version 2

I just finished another 25 turn test v1.41 with the same 19 TDM-Modpack v1.72 races as Last test, added as controlled by computer using selected race style in the unfinished map8 posted Last night with a ten good planet (all else default) start. I put the Rage in slot 1 home Central. I played the Clays in slot 14 and turned control over to full AI on, but adjusted research to do PD and Ice colony. The table below gives score rank, then # contacted, #wars, #none, # NA, #TA, #TR, #MA, #P, then race name followed by my politics score. Scoring is same as Last post. My first race contact was Rage coming into my cluster on turn 15. Until then my AI never left the cluster. As soon as the first contact was made the Clays AI started sending warships and colony ships into the nexus going to other clusters. So race contact started then. As of turn 25 the Rage are in six wars and have lost two home worlds but have started colonies in six other clusters, so they will live a while. They are using missiles and PPB. I am going to continue playing this game to see how politics unfold and will post when I reach turn 50,75,100. My race this time was the old Clays empire used in the previous game, you can check it by download turn 60 of Last game from the scenario/mod archive. Politics is MUCH better, from not living in Central alone I suspect, because the Rage are getting hammered there too. Once again it took about four hours for 25 turns. Notice that when the human player is NOT within range two warps of the AI colonies then the AI does not meet him. That is why some races have not left their home clusters to meet other AI. I have long suspected this game feature. I expect it is intended to speed up the game so that you do not have to search every system to track down the AI players. OTOH it could just be that the AI only checks the systems within two warps of his colonies. It can NOT be a fuel range problem, because a transit from cluster to cluster is only range 6 to clusters in the two adjacent nexus - a total of 8 more clusters. Until my ships entered the nexus after turn 15 I was within two warps of only four races - the Rage and the other three connected to the same nexus as my cluster. Since my AI never went to check the other clusters until the Rage visited, I conclude that full AI on does not follow the same rules as using style from race, or an Ancient race is not interested in exploration.

16-15(-08)/1(-10)/2(-2)/1/05(05)/2(04)/2(08)/2(16) Colonials +13 met 17 TA 18\
07-16(-06)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/10(10)/2(04)/0(00)/1(08) Phong +4 met 16 TA 19
03-17(-04)/1(-10)/4(-4)/0/09(09)/2(04)/1(04)/0(00) Cue Cappa -1 met 17 TA21
06-13(-12)/0(-00)/3(-3)/0/08(08)/2(04)/0(00)/0(00) Clays -3 myself
20-15(-08)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/11(11)/0(00)/1(04)/0(00) Cryslonite -5 met 20 TA 24
02-17(-04)/1(-10)/5(-5)/0/10(10)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Abbidon -7 met 16 TA 19
05-15(-08)/1(-10)/1(-1)/1/12(12)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Eee -7 met 19 TA 22
09-18(-02)/2(-20)/2(-2)/0/12(12)/1(02)/1(04)/0(00) Drushocka -8 met 17 TA 20
10-15(-08)/1(-10)/5(-5)/0/08(08)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Sallegra -13 met 20 none
18-18(-02)/2(-20)/4(-4)/0/12(12)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Krill -14 met 18 TA 20
07-10(-18)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/05(05)/1(02)/0(00)/1(08) Toltayan -15 not met
02-16(-06)/1(-10)/9(-9)/1/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Sergetti -20 met 18 TA 23
13-16(-06)/2(-20)/5(-5)/2/06(06)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Xi Chung -23 not met
11-14(-10)/1(-10)/8(-8)/1/04(04)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Amonkrie -24 met 16 TA 18
18-10(-18)/1(-10)/4(-4)/0/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Ukra Tal -27 not met
15-07(-24)/1(-10)/1(-1)/0/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Piundan -30 not met
16-06(-26)/1(-10)/0(-0)/0/05(05)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Toron -31 not met
09-05(-28)/1(-10)/1(-1)/0/02(02)/1(02)/0(00)/0(00) Pyrochette -35 not met
13-05(-28)/1(-10)/2(-2)/0/02(02)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Narn -38 not met
19-18(-02)/6(-60)/6(-6)/0/06(06)/0(00)/0(00)/0(00) Rage -62 met 15 none

I ran the test game up to turn 30 and then checked all AI to see what they knew of nexus ruins. 13 had seen 60. 2 had seen 45. 4 had seen 15. Only one had seen none. None of them had colonized anything in the nexus, including the Rage. This is a game bug/feature that empires created under computer control will not colonize in any system created using the map editor. So for me map8 is a failure not worth any further time. I am going to make a mod with a new systemtype for the nexus 25x5 block design. Then I will generate maps until I get the right number of nexus systems and about 250+ total systems. Then I will shift systems into neat clusters, create the warp links and post. It will take about as long to do that as it would take me to manually add 25x5x11 planets (12+ hours). The planets will also have a variety of resources and climates rather than the boring 100/100/100 mild. There will also be ruins randomly added in normal quantities on lots of planets rather than lots just on selected ones. The AI should be willing to COLONIZE in the new nexus systems. If I put no medium or large planets in them then no AI should START in a nexus system. Only one nexus needs to be modded using the map editor - the one use for race 1 start at Central.

I checked the Modders guide in the archive for discussion of the politics file, but there are only a couple of discussions by Daynar and Master Belisarius. So I took the time to figure out what the specifications mean and explain them here for adding to the guide and enlightenment of other players. My politics rating in the Last couple of Posts has little meaning, because the treaties of a race depend more on who they have met and when than their race specifications. However, the data does seem to indicate that the AI politics file is being used and working well.

So far as treaty politics go, races fall into three broad categories - aggressive, defensive, and neutral. The AI politics files for the TDM-Modpack races are derived from these templates. What each race is and how it deviates from the template is best addressed by the race designers.

If you are much weaker (lower score in empires scores) compared to the race sending the message, then it uses demanding tone. If you are much stronger, then it uses pleading. How much weaker/stronger depends on the race.

The bug/feature I noted previously where a race has a treaty higher than "highest allowed treaty" is explained simply as discussed in another thread. The race will not propose higher than that level. But if ANOTHER race proposes the treaty then the low treaty race can accept it.

"Turns since Last war before friendly treaty" is since the war STARTED not since it ended. Otherwise two AI could never stop a mutual war. The defaults are 12/15/20. Exceptions are the relentless Xichung and Pyrochette at 50, and the unforgiving Norak at 100.

VERY IMPORTANT
The anger level is determined by the anger file. The point scores developed here are compared against that anger score. If points scored is less then the test fails. If greater then the action MAY be taken. I suspect a probability roll where the amount in excess gives the percentage chance that the action will occur. The reason is simply that if a bad politics event occurs you can quit, reload and go next turn. Often the politics list is completely different.
VERY IMPORTANT

The "base anger level" is the points scored before modifiers are considered. Positive modifiers increase the points scored, negative decrease them. So a race that is just plain mean has a LOWER base than normal for treaties, but a HIGHER base for breaking or declaring war. An example is the Pyrochette.

"Accept treaty anger modifier per higher treaty level" at -5. TA -5 to TR then TR -10 to MA then MA -15 to P ? Basically this means that the AI requires less anger to accept at the higher treaty levels. This makes sense, why would an AI be partners with somebody who hated him ? A tolerant race would have a less negative value, while an intolerant one would be more negative. I did a spot check, but they all seem to be -5.

"Accept treaty minimum anger chance" is a puzzler. They are all set at 5 except the Sergetti and Xichung at 1. I think it means that even if the points score test fails, then the probability roll still occurs with the chance given of the treaty accepted. With 20 races this means that on average only one or two would accept your treaty/upgrade if you proposed to all of them every turn. But your chances are MUCH better if you let the AI do the proposing. So about the only use is to get out of wars, trying every turn for the first 12 turns after the war started. After that you are better off letting the AI do the proposing.

"Anger modifier per other wars" is simple. As with the base, a really mean race will have a lower than normal for treaties, but a higher than normal for break/war. From a check it seems that they are all the same for break. The Rage check out as really mean...

"Accept treaty minimum time from Last treaty" means what it says. But it does NOT keep an AI race from proposing one treaty right after another, a common occurrence for the human player. You just have to let the AI initiate the upgrades, or wait ten turns. A spot check reveals very few if any of the AI want to be rushed.

"First 50 turns modifier" is a neat option. It lets you make a race really mean then settle down (lower than normal - none found), or alternatively morph from a forgiving mouse into a tiger at turn 50 (higher than normal) - Amonkrie, Rage, Sergetti, and especially Norak. I definitely intend to abuse this one when designing my race! I would like another added for turn 100 and put it on the break/war tests too.

"Anger Modifier for percent stronger player" and amount lets the race be cautious when facing a well established opponent. A lower than normal amount for treaties and a higher than normal for break/war would be a reckless player. The opposite would be a cautious one. I plan to be cautious. Lots of mods.

"Anger modifier for percent weaker player" and amount lets the race either pound on or ignore the really weak. A lower than normal amount for treaties and a higher than normal for break/war would be pound on. Ignore would be the opposite. I plan to pound on the weak. Lots of mods.

I checked the break treaty and declare war specifications, but not the treaties. What I found was interesting.
Almost all races are reckless toward stronger, ignore the weak. I think this is to have all the mid range and lower AI gang up on the strongest, pulling it down to their level.
The only exceptions I found in these two was the Darloks and Piundan, who reversed things as I plan to, cautious toward stronger, pound on the weak.
The Pyrochette are normal versus stronger and less tolerant but still mostly ignoring the weak.
Notice that this does NOT prevent wars between AI of comparable score. It just makes it more likely that if annoyed by a stronger war will be declared, while the antics of the weak are tolerated.

On the break treaty and declare war there are obviously other hard coded factors operating. I have found that while the very weak hate my guts, they will not break treaty once I have gotten the level to 20% IF and thats a BIG IF my trade level with them is a major factor in their economy. So do not get too out of proportion on your empire score between facilities and ship points. Basically ships/bases are one empire score point per 100k tons hull size. All production is one empire score point per production point. While getting your treaty level up you can prevent an AI from sending break treaty Messages by proposing a resource trade every turn. Generally I trade about 10 orgs/rads per 9 min recieved. With some you can do an even swap or better, you just have to experiment. A bug/feature which may be removed soon is that if you can find a succesful tech trade, then you can usually play it over again also demanding 200/200/200k in resources as part of the package and get it. Enjoy while it Lasts!

According to Daynar, propose treaty is based on what anger level the one considering the treaty message has toward the other race, and the race considering the treaty only cares what anger level the other race has for itself on accept treaty. Two examples to consider are the Krill and Xi Chung who hate everybody. Now if the other races cared that the Krill hated them, then they would not propose treaties, so it is only their own low anger that counts. The Krill have great success in treaty making and usually have only one or two wars going. So I think it is the Krill accepting treaties based on the low anger of the other that counts, ignoring their own hate. So Daynar is right based on my own observations of treaty making. That's why the player race which is seen as Brotherly by races who it sees are Murderous can make higher level treaties. Anger does not have to be mutual at all. The races in slots 1-13 should see a human player WHO DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY CLAIM SYSTEMS (an empires option at the bottom left) as Brotherly. As noted previously (turn 60 Last game) the races in slots 14-20 see a human player as Moderate, presumably to distinguish single system neutral race politics from competitive races. So put the haters into the early slots and the brotherlies at the end.
1) Brotherlies - Eee, Phong, Toltayan, Colonials, Narn, Toron
2) Murderous - Sallegra, Drushocka, Krill, Xi Chung
There may be more of either type, those are just the ones noted at turn 60 in my Last game.

"Propose treaty percent chance per turn" I suppose this means that the AI will not even check its test unless a probability roll succeeds. Alternatively it may do the test then if the condition is met it does a probability roll. The effect would be the same unless there is another roll based on how much the test exceeds the minimum. Obviously the higher the % then the more likely is treaty making.

"Propose treaty type x anger level below computed" A test of my points calculation can be done by having lots of wars. That makes a high points value. Subtracting the anger level leaves a lower value of residual points. The more wars and the more likely a treaty would be wanted, then the higher the residual. The higher the treaty level, then the less angry the partner must be, so then the higher the desired residual. This is precisely what the values are, typically TA 0 TR 5 MA 10 P 15. In other words for a partnership 15 added anger must be below the computed residual. This makes sense, to prevent upgrading a treaty which might be about to fail anyway. At TA and TR it is not so important. But at MA the treaty partner could refuel his ships and at P would gets maps....

All the rest of the stuff is self explanatory and much of it does not work. I guess Aaron did the essential stuff first then found that he had no time for the other or that there was just too much extraneous politics going on to get the important treaty Messages through, so he disabled it.

I hope the ten hours I spent on this has not been wasted. I just decided that since I needed to figure it out for designing my own race, I might as well post it....

[Atraikius]

Don't know if they have been fixed, but a couple of Versions ago, I found there are some of the politics settings that are not working at all.

Also, found that some of the modifiers seem to apply to the current anger level, while others apply to the anger level required for the condition to be true - making the values be opposite of what you would expect.

quote:

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Originally posted by Atraikius:
Also, found that some of the modifiers seem to apply to the current anger level, while others apply to the anger level required for the condition to be true - making the values be opposite of what you would expect.

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Which ones?? I thought that I had evaluated the logic VERY carefully, and checked it against observed racial behavior. The only one I can think you might mean is the added anger for treaties per upgrade, but that is just a point modifier too. Please be specific, after carefully checking the data and behavior observed.

[Sinapus]

(Download map. Open up map editor.)

Sinapus falls to the floor in shock..

Egads....

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"What do -you- want?" "I'd like to live -just- long enough to be there when they cut off your head and stick it on a pike as a warning to the next ten generations that some favors come with too high a price. I would look up into your lifeless eyes and wave like this..." *waggle* "...can you and your associates arrange that for me, Mr. Morden?"

I see what happened now - at 01 July around midnight I read the post in the canteen of 23:15 on your adventure line and was pulled into here and now. So all this time you have been thinking that I am a raving lunatic ?

How amusing. You see, I really am from somewhere else and am simply curious.

Lonnie Courtney Clay

I wish I had more time to adventure...

[This message has been edited by VampiricDread (edited 01 July 2001).]

You have a lot to answer for sonny boy.

Lonnie Courtney Clay