OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!

[Starhawk]

Okay first off I'm a boy from the USA so to the God Damn the USA line I have a big UP YOURS!!! from the USA jerkoff....especially because if you weren't free your dumbass would be in jail for bashing your government.

NOW on to the Civil Disobedience bit there, face it Anti-War Protesters fall under civil disobedience because they are usually a royal pain in the *** that block streets and generally cause a headache wherever they go with all their "Sadam wasn't so bad" and "Bin Laden's a Nice Guy....REALLY" crap so don't even get me started on making it sound like the American Government is a FACIST party sort of deal.....especially because I DON'T LIKE THE GREEN PARY

BTW AMERICA IS NOT A FRIGGIN DEMOCRACY look up your history we are a Republic which means "LIMITED POWER TO THE PEOPLE!" you know why? Because unlike Athens where a voice for every man and a man for every voice we have a population of over 300 MILLION (and that's just the legal ones) so a true democracy where eveyone gets to do what they want would be anarchy.....and Civil Disobedience has to be shut down SOMEWHERE especially because those dumb greenparty and Libertarians WANTED TO BE ARRESTED and I'm sure we are only getting their "We are so martyrs!" side of this story.

Oh and under most state laws CROSSING A POLICE LINE IS ILLEGAL! no matter who you are and so they deserved to get their arses busted for that dumb move......so don't even make them sound like poor little angels who were jumped by the Government SS troopers (Stormtroopers were friggin soldiers ELITE GERMAN soldiers who stormed Trenches during WWI so please stop referring to every facist like police force as stormtroopers as they would be closer to the "Gaurd" branch of the SS and NOT even the Wauffin (Field corps) SS)

Anywhoo Gandalf my boy to your little quote

"Which was also the claim of England, and Russia, and even Germany in its heyday. Of course, it depends on your concept of liberation. Now people are trying to liberate countries from the US. Crossing another nations borders to liberate them can be a dangerous concept if not done carefully."

England was trying to "civilize" the world NOT liberate it, the countries they conquered they occupied and established as tax paying provinces (AND DON'T EVEN CLAIM THE US HAS PROVINCES OR I WILL BEAT YOU WITH A STICK ) and not simply trade partners.
Germany! fah they were trying to "liberate" their "Aryan brothers" not impoverished countries run by dictators who were responsible for OVER A MILLION DEATHS in the course of their reign many tens of thousands of which being at the hands of said dictators secret police force (and their sons who just decided to rape women for the hell of it).
Why the HECK does a country like the US trying to free these people get treated like it's doing something wrong, maybe those big bad European powers should show more concern for the world outside their borders as well and start HELPING rid the world of dictators for a change. WHY THE HECK does getting rid of a freakin dictator now a days become a BAD THING. think about a world with no dictators? Wouldn't that be great.....

And RUSSIA "liberating" their neighbors from rival empires was land grabbing that's all, they too occupied said nations and turned them into paying provinces with no independant government or anything of that sort.


Now moving onto your remark on those terrorist scum crossing the borders to "liberate" Iraq from the US LIBERATION IS NOT THEIR INTENT! they simply want to kill as man servants of "The Great Satan" as they can else wise they would actually try to defeat the army and not just kill women children and their own "Islamic brothers" without discression....that is not LIBERATION by ANY definition.....

Sorry for any spelling errors but I had a total of 3 hours of sleep Last night and political BS like this pisses me off when people don't bother trying to get a second viewpoint into the picture.

YES America has it's flaws but we are also the Strongest, and I have to say most FREE nation on earth and people need to learn to appreciate that freedom and that greatness and their heritage with respect and not try to make our government sound like a damned fascist state.

HELL we have MORE rights then our American ancestors I meam look at the "civil rights" of everyone during the Civil War era....sorry that wasn't that good as only the elites could afford to vote on anything.....anyway I'm too tired to say anything else....sorry for the excessive cussing but I DON'T LIKE MY COUNTRY being bashed....especially by people who don't friggin live here like you limeys in the group

Edited for unnecessary rudeness

[Starhawk]

Oh and this deserves a seperate post:

Democracy DOES NOT WORK for the long term even Republics have not Lasted and most of those throughout history have fallen do to dumbass citizens who pulled so much crap that they were eventually brought under an iron grip because they were seen as too stupid or anarchy ridden to rule themselves. not acusing anyone Here of this (cept Ed)
Either that or they have been conquered by a nation that is unified through force and pretty much shoots anti-war types and makes dissenters disapear.
The United States is the oldest surviving Republic and the most powerful nation in the world so I'm sorry but we must be doing something right....(not to mention that we get the HIGHEST friggin immigration rates of any country on earth) so for all you "US is evil" folks maybe you should think about your own government first......because I can say plenty of things that England has done crappy throughout their history, and Germany, and Russia, and France and EVERY DANG COUNTRY ON EARTH!.

Now I am saying that until hopefully someday something better then both the current "Democracies" (and that means ALL of THEM) and the current "Iron Grip" regimes comes along I WILL GO FOR the American "Democracy" any day....thank you.

[AMF]

Starhawk, I'll not comment, I'll just provide the info below...and ask you to read it with an open mind. Not my words.

(source linked at end)

Even if they don't like to say it out loud, lots of Democrats think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right! A remarkable new report, titled "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters," from PIPA, the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, suggests that rank and file Republicans are more benighted than even the most supercilious coastal elitist would imagine. (link mentioned:
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pr..._21_04.html#1)

Analyzing data from a series of nationwide polls, the report finds that a majority of Bush supporters believe things about the world that are objectively untrue, while the majority of Kerry supporters dwell in the reality-based community. For example, Bush backers largely think that the president and his policies are popular internationally. Seventy-five percent believe that Iraq was providing "substantial" aid to al-Qaida, and 63 percent say clear evidence of this has been found. That, of course, would be news even to Donald Rumsfeld, who earlier this month told the Council on Foreign Relations, "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two."

Though its language is dispassionate, the report lays responsibility for this epidemic of ignorance at the White House's door. "So why are Bush supporters clinging so tightly to these beliefs in the face of repeated disconfirmations?" it asks. "Apparently one key reason is that they continue to hear the Bush administration confirming these beliefs."

Indeed, it says, "an overwhelming 82% [of Bush supporters] perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or a major WMD program (19%). Only 16% of Bush supporters perceive the administration as saying that Iraq had some limited activities, but not an active program (15%) or had nothing (1%). The pattern on al Qaeda is similar. Seventy-five percent of Bush supporters think the Bush administration is currently saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda (56%) or even that it was directly involved in 9/11 (19%). Further, 55% of Bush supporters say it is their impression the Bush administration is currently saying the US has found clear evidence Saddam Hussein was working closely with al Qaeda (not saying clear evidence found: 37%)."

These people aren't going to be swayed by the argument that Bush has alienated America's allies and left the country isolated in the world, because they don't believe this to be the case. "Despite a steady flow of official statements, public demonstrations, and public opinion polls showing that the US war against Iraq is quite unpopular, only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq," the study says. Bush supporters also think that world public opinion favors Bush's reelection. In a poll taken from Sept. 3-7, the study says, "57% of Bush supporters assumed that the majority of people in the world would prefer to see Bush reelected, 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be preferred."

In fact, a PIPA study released in early September found that a majority or plurality of people from 32 countries preferred Kerry to Bush. PIPA surveyed 34,330 people, ages 15 and above, from regions all over the world. A Pew poll released this spring similarly found that "large majorities in every country, except for the U.S., hold an unfavorable opinion of Bush."

Bush supporters are also mistaken about the president's own positions (a pattern of misapprehension that an earlier PIPA report also documented). "Majorities incorrectly assumed that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues -- the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%); 51% incorrectly assumed he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty -- the principal international accord on global warming ... Only 13% of supporters are aware that he opposes labor and environmental standards in trade agreements -- 74% incorrectly believe that he favors including labor and environmental standards in agreements on trade. In all these cases, there is a recurring theme: majorities of Bush supporters favor these positions, and they infer that Bush favors them as well."

According to the report, this reality gap is something new in American life. "So why do Bush supporters show such a resistance to accepting dissonant information?" it asks. "While it is normal for people to show some resistance, the magnitude of the denial goes beyond the ordinary. Bush supporters have succeeded in suppressing awareness of the findings of a whole series of high-profile reports about prewar Iraq that have been blazoned across the headlines of newspapers and prompted extensive, high-profile and agonizing reflection. The fact that a large portion of Americans say they are unaware that the original reasons that the US took military action -- and for which Americans continue to die on a daily basis -- are not turning out to be valid, are probably not due to a simple failure to pay attention to the news."

The analysis says that the roots of this denial could lie in the trauma of 9/11 and people's desire to hold on to their image of Bush as a "capable protector." It offers no guidance, though, on how ordinary Republicans might be coaxed back to reality.

And while "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters" may be perversely satisfying to Democrats in its confirmation of blue-state prejudices, it carries a pretty disturbing question for all rational Americans: How can arguments based on fact prevail in a nation where so many people know so little?


from:http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

[narf poit chez BOOM]

And on your comment about people not criticizing their own country, let me take a moment to say:

[sarcasm]Hey, Canada has dedicated soldiers. That way, they can be brave and bold while their equipment falls apart around them.[/sarcasm]

[Renegade 13]

Starhawk said:
YES America has it's flaws but we are also the Strongest, and I have to say most FREE nation on earth and people need to learn to appreciate that freedom and that greatness and their heritage with respect and not try to make our government sound like a damned fascist state.

Sorry, but I'll disagree with you here. I live in Canada, and I think that as of now, we are more free than the US has been for quite some time. I am more free than you ever will be. At least the police here don't have the right to detain you without just cause indefinitely, like they do in the US. At least my government doesn't invade other countries, killing untold thousands of innocent people (along with the thousands of guilty). My country believes in peacekeeping, not war-mongering. Who's in Afghanistand with their troops, keeping the peace now that the US lost interest and went on to invade Iraq? Canada does.

Give me a break Starhawk. Your attitude seems to suggest that you think America and Americans are the best thing the world has ever produced! That you always were, and always will be the most powerful, most free and best thing ever! Do you also believe in Manifest Destiny, like many Americans seem to? That it is your "destiny" to rule the entire world? That you have right to do whatever you want, simply because there is no one else in the world who has the military might available to stop you? I'm sorry, but just because you're the most powerful, doesn't mean you're always right, like you seem to believe.

I mean no disrespect to you Starhawk, I simply do not understand when people have attitudes like yours. I don't mean to insult you or anything, but I can not sit here, reading this stuff, and not comment. I hope no one is offended by this, and I hope the meaning of my words makes it through the transition from my mind into print!

[Raging Deadstar]

Renegade: It's called Patriotism simply put. Not necerssarily a bad thing but not always a good thing.

[Renegade 13]

Raging Deadstar said:
Renegade: It's called Patriotism simply put. Not necerssarily a bad thing but not always a good thing.

Very true, but rabid patriotism is definitely not good, not when it blinds the person to all other viewpoints.

[AMF]

Patriotism?

There are different kinds of patriotism. I think Starhawk Subscribes to the "Ann Coulter" school of patriotism ("my country right or wrong and if you say wrong you're a traitor and we should kill you and convert you to xtianity anyways...!)

Forgive me, but I always get tickled when I think of ann and I have to bring out one of my favorite Coulter quotes:

"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"---Ann Coulter, on Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01

For more Coulter tidbits, see: http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/fea...terwisdom.html

Raging Deadstar said:
Renegade: It's called Patriotism simply put. Not necerssarily a bad thing but not always a good thing.

[Starhawk]

Renegade 13 said:

Thanks for clearing that up Fyron, I must have gotten my information screwed up in my head. Not the first time that's happened...

One more thing though...have any of you heard of the Canadian citizen who was travelling to the US, and yet was detained by the US immigration, or homeland security, or some such organization, and then deported to Syria!! He was kept incarcerated by US forces without just cause, simply because he used to live in Syria. He was a Canadian citizen, and yet some braindead organization deported him to Syria! Come on. That's just ridiculous.

I will admit, the Canadian government cooperated with the US somewhat in this, and for that I have no respect for them. Now, Canada was also responsible for that. I admit it. I'm not so rabidly patriotic that I can not see the truth.

Point is, the US does many things that are against basic human rights. Other countries do too. Canada probably does so as well. There are many problems with the world today, and we can't solve them all. That doesn't mean we have to be rabidly patriotic and stick our head in the sand though.

By the way, the name of the Canadian that was deported to Syria was Maher Arrar (not sure of the spelling) just in case anyone wanted to look that up.

Okay Renegade I'm sorry here but that whole Canadian citizen deal is just BS as a justification for how "evil" we americans are I had a friend who was detained by the RCMP and kept for over four hours of questioning because of one oops in his passport so political mistakes happen on both sides of the border

Oh and Canada has a military so weak it can barely defend it's own country and relies on allies for everything (not an insult here I'm just saying) so they couldn't go about any serious wars if they wanted too.

"Patriotism?

There are different kinds of patriotism. I think Starhawk Subscribes to the "Ann Coulter" school of patriotism ("my country right or wrong and if you say wrong you're a traitor and we should kill you and convert you to xtianity anyways...!)

Forgive me, but I always get tickled when I think of ann and I have to bring out one of my favorite Coulter quotes:

"God gave us the earth. We have dominion over the plants, the animals, the trees. God said, 'Earth is yours. Take it. Rape it. It's yours.'"---Ann Coulter, on Hannity & Colmes, 6/20/01"

Oh give me a BREAK! I even SAID that the US has it's flaws I just said I'd take it over any other country any day that is hardly a "kill or convert" policy, My problem with you foreigners that go whining about how "evil" we are have no right to judge us when no doubt your country has it's own sorted political crap so why as I said why don't you limit your whining to your own country?
And NO I am not accusing all the folks that disagree with US policy here of being whiney I am just saying folks that are comparing us to "The Evil Empire" and crap like that.

"You might want to be aware of who you are talking about if you are including me. Although there should NOT be such a thing as a list of qualifications which give the right to comment, if there WERE such a list then many of us would qualify quite heavily. Hmmmm lets see... US citizen, vietnam vet, military retired, tax payer, functional family man, home owner. Thats quite a list of things I can put me on the "politicians listen to me" list. About the only thing I could add to it that I dont have at the moment is that Im no longer a "small business owner" or "CEO of a large corporation". Thats just me. I thought Id clarify it abit."

You were ABSOLUTELY not included Gandalf, I was making that remark about those "we need a revolution" folks that seek violence in change instead of positive changes.
If you dislike the US government and are a US citizen and can effect change for the better if enough of you get together then by all means do it.
But there has never been a positive revolution before or since the First American Revolution as revolutions tear countries apart and leave them ripe for other nations to pick apart, not to mention find me two Americans with enough firepower to take on an armored division and then maybe I'll feel threatened by any pathetic attempt at revolution, until then shutup about a violent revolution and instead try to make positive changes and lead the community through peaceful and educated talks about how they can improve things and NOT just whine about how evil the government is and how evil the US military is and blah blah blah ad nauseum.

I am just sick and tired of people acting like the United States is evil, I'm sorry to say we have earned an unfortunate reputation as a nation due to stupid things that we've done but I find it convenient that those very people who say how evil we are never bother pointing out whatever the US has done their country has likely done it LOOONG before and a LOT WORSE (that mainly goes for the older nations like many of those in the MIdeast and Europe) so please save me that saints and angels bit.
Trust me the US could use improvement, mainly in the department of trying to do anything in the world, if you ask me we should pretty much do what European nations do and say "Screw the lot" and stay home, OH BUT WAIT when we tried that the world whined about us NOT doing anything......either way it seems to me we are screwed in the eyes of the world.

So basically my political view on the world today:

Politics 101 the world sucks every nation sucks to someone it's just that the US being the most powerful sucker on the block gets the biggest load when it sucks LOL


And I'm sorry there is a difference between changing your mind and changing your tune during the same speech in one sentence Kerry will be all
"Yes I voted for the war in Iraq"
the next sentence he'll be going
"The war in Iraq is wrong and I've said so from the start"
Or similar (I'm not good at quoting from memory) so I dislike that in anybody but it would be worse in a president.

Do I think Bush is perfect LOL hahahahahahhahahaha muahahahaha heheeeeheeehee ahem cough anyhoo "Strategery" lol. sorry

What I was trying to say is NON POLITICS I love my country so back off.....I'm sure you wouldn't like every political screwup your country ever made to be judged forever would you?

[Starhawk]

Oh and BTW WAKE UP the world is run by power hungry buisnessmen NOT just the United States so please stop using our power hungry jerks to make u all look evil just because they happen to b richer then your money hungry jerks....thank you.

And I stopped cussing so please stop with the "tone it down" stuff I already did I said sorry publicly and I edited out the cussing.

As I said I was tired and frustrated so I got hot faster then I should have.....can we let that go now please?


"Again its not the facts, its the way they are worded and looked at by others than the person who keeps saying them louder and louder. And civil disorders in those territories has caused us to send in troops (same as the british empire).

The scarey part is that most of those were taken in war. They were taken to move out the government ruling them, we stayed in control in order to "lead them to a proper government", (sound familiar?) and now decades later they still arent free nations or states. Im sure its all in their best interest but then most such actions by countries usually are as far as the nation doing it says. "

Yeah I know I probobly blew a lot of my credibility out the window with the hostile flame and I already said sorry so you are right about the way I phrased things.

Well I do hope that those nations can someday either become states of their own will or become self reliant enough to be an independant nation but until then I just hope they are happy

Now as to the line about "Us giving up on Afghanistan" what the heck news have you been watching

FIRST FREE ELECTIONS EVER are already under way there, that doesn't sound like a nation of dozens of small fifedomes to me?

OH and there are still over 100,000 US service personnell in Afghanistan, pretty much between there and Iraq the bulk of the US armed forces are deployed. There is also a UN peacekeeper contingent in Afghanistan so the US "military" should back out as soldiers are NOT peacekeepers and it's not their duty.