OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!

[AMF]

Starhawk said:
I have hope for the future of my country, it's seen bad times before and with any luck it will rise again to a position of respect instead of paranoia and hate.

One way to ensure that is to not act unilaterally, but with friends and allies. If a nation that is the most powerful in the world acts like nobody else's opinion matters, there is only one ultimate result: the rest of the world will band together against us. You think we're at war now? The rest of the world hates what we did so much that if we don;t regain their trust and respect, we ain't seen nothing yet. And trust and respect is not something you can force on others.

I fear our children and our childrens' children will be reaping the bitter fruit of our dear leader's misguided ways for many years...

I am saddened, also, because I have traveled around the world to countries that ostesibly are enemies of the US. I have been to Iran, Sudan, and a whole load of other places, just me and a backpack. I loved Iran the best - wonderful people, and although they often found issue with US policies, they all loved American people and hated their own government.

Now, I fear that if the American people re-elect Bush, I will never again be able travel in many countries for they will hate Americans as much as they hate Bush.

And, once the world hates the American government AND the American people, we've lost. There will no longer be any "city on a hill" in this country for others to look up to.

EDIT: clarified ambigious grammar

[Starhawk]

Yes you are completely right but out of Bush and Kerry I don't trust Kerry as I have researched much of his war record and it scares me what his fellow soldiers thought of him.

I do not entirely like Bush either but at least we KNOW what Bush will do most likely, so it is better the Devil you know then the one you won't.

Yeah I've heard Iran is a country of rich culture and background but I've also met a woman from Iran who said getting out was the best thing that ever happened to her....so honestly there I don't judge that country because I'm sure man Iranians LOVE their country as I love the US (not necessarily the government)so I leave Iran alone.

[AMF]

Starhawk said:
Yes you are completely right but out of Bush and Kerry I don't trust Kerry as I have researched much of his war record and it scares me what his fellow soldiers thought of him.

Wait, you're talking the Swift Boat Vets, right?

None of whom served with him, and most are paid by republican lobbyists?

Have you listened to what the vets who served with him have said?

Get both sides!

Yeah, Iran certainly sucked for those who were on the losing side of the revolution in 79. I know lots of Irani expats here, and they all had to leave in a hurry, and many didn't get out with all their relatives. No doubt about it - the Ayatolloyah was an evil B****D.

And, yeah, most Muslim countries suck for women. Not all, but most. There's nuances and ways around it, of course. When I was over there there was a thriving underground of booze and pick-up scenes. I could have gotten all the gin and other liquor I wanted. And, the scariest part of my whole trip was when I was in a store having tea with a shop keeper, and in walked three high school irani girls, and they sat and giggled and made jokes in farsi (I couldn't understand a word of it) and then, suddenly, one leaned over and planted one right on my lips. Seriously. I was totally shocked. And scared. Like, the religious police are gonna cut my head off when they come around the corner scared. SO I stammered something unintelligible, and left. The shopkeeper later said that they just thought I was real cute with blond hair and they wanted to marry me. Yowza! Sorry ladies, not gonna happen...

All in all, a memorable experience.

[Starhawk]

"Wait, you're talking the Swift Boat Vets, right?

None of whom served with him, and most are paid by republican lobbyists?

Have you listened to what the vets who served with him have said?"

Well his own CO said he wrote his own after acion report which is not only against military regs it can be punished by legal action (aka quarts martial).

Also as I said he got piddly ant wounds 3 times in a four month period that obviously didn't hurt him much then he ran home and bad mouthed his fellow soldiers in Nam and I mean entire UNITS not just individuals.
My great uncle stayed for 2 tours after getting hit twice (each was enough to put him out for a while) and he died so 4 months and copping out to go home when your comrades have to stay is bull.

Sorry but that's my feelings on Kerry, I think he is a liar as are all politicians but what bugs me about him is his danged "I Wont 3 purple hearts" big deal so you got in the way 3 times and got a skinned knee (or it's wartime equivalent) tens of thousands of other US soldiers got the purple heart after they died (can't remember the spelling of the word so I won't even try right now) so he's nothing special and should stop rubbing those in our faces.

[AMF]

After Action Reports are AFAIK written by the people who participated in the action. I think his CO never met him, right? Or do I have that wrong? WE do it in the Navy and USMC all the time today.

In any case, I don't feel qualified to judge the extent of a man's injuries, nor how they choose to deal with them. Everyone is different, and I don;t think any wound that leaves shrapnel still in one's leg thirty years later could be characterized as "piddly ant" - I do know though that he volounteered for the war when he could have gotten a deferment easily, while Cheney got 5 deferments and Bush, well, we all know what Bush did.

In any case, I do think the Vietnam thing is sort of silly as an issue - I don't think he should have emphasized it as much as he did - it was over thirty years ago. But by the same token, in war I want someone who's actually seen combat to lead a nation.

As to his testimony about atrocities being committed in Vietnam, he was recounting what other vets had told him, and, in any case, atrocities *were* committed.

I think very highly of a man who is willing to stand up in the face of his superiors and his fellows for what is right. Vietnam was a very nasty little affair - and it was the *wrong* war. Atrocities have been committed in Iraq (Abu Ghraib and others that will eventually see the light of day) and for someone today to stand up and shout that "hey that ain't right!" would be a service to the country.

To not say someything in the face of evil is to take the easy way out. I respect Kerry greatly for having the courage to speak out about evils being done in the name of the US. There is not much braver than that.

But, in any case, it was thirty years ago...

Starhawk said:

Well his own CO said he wrote his own after acion report which is not only against military regs it can be punished by legal action (aka quarts martial).

Also as I said he got piddly ant wounds 3 times in a four month period that obviously didn't hurt him much then he ran home and bad mouthed his fellow soldiers in Nam and I mean entire UNITS not just individuals.
My great uncle stayed for 2 tours after getting hit twice (each was enough to put him out for a while) and he died so 4 months and copping out to go home when your comrades have to stay is bull.

Sorry but that's my feelings on Kerry, I think he is a liar as are all politicians but what bugs me about him is his danged "I Wont 3 purple hearts" big deal so you got in the way 3 times and got a skinned knee (or it's wartime equivalent) tens of thousands of other US soldiers got the purple heart after they died (can't remember the spelling of the word so I won't even try right now) so he's nothing special and should stop rubbing those in our faces.

[Katchoo]

Starhawk said:Sorry but that's my feelings on Kerry, I think he is a liar as are all politicians but what bugs me about him is his danged "I Wont 3 purple hearts" big deal so you got in the way 3 times and got a skinned knee (or it's wartime equivalent) tens of thousands of other US soldiers got the purple heart after they died (can't remember the spelling of the word so I won't even try right now) so he's nothing special and should stop rubbing those in our faces.

I'm sorry, but the complete and utter disrespect being shown to Veterens by Republicans (you included, Starhawk) is disgusting.

Regardless of the injury, how it happend, where it happened, or how often it happend, at least he had the balls to volunteer. What he saw in Vietnam horrified him (and many others), and because of that he spoke out. Until you've walked a mile in that man's shoes, you are in NO position to question, degrade, or insult his Service.

My Grandfather served over 2 Years overseas during World War II, and if I ever degraded someone's Service the way you and the Republican's are (ie: those stupid purple heart bandaids) I would fully expect him to have taken out his WWII pistol out of storage and shoot me dead.

Republicans... I've never seen a more disrespectful and disgusting group of people since a dumb *** KKK supporter tried to march in Ottawa.

[Gandalf Parker]

alarikf said:
And, yeah, most Muslim countries suck for women. Not all, but most.

Careful there. Thats an awful lot of countries. Including ones in Europe, members of NATO, ones in Africa and in the Pacific nations. Im not sure that "most" would apply unless you mean the arabic desert nations. Then it would probably be a safe statement. (my overseas muslim experience was in Turkey)

[AMF]

You're absolutely right, and I shoulnd't have said that - I know better, and I don't even really feel totally like that. I mean, I hate, *hate* vast generalizations like that. My wife and I argue a lot about it. She says, unequivocally, that women in muslim situations have it cr*ppy. I say, yeah, progbably, but, it ain't like you think...And I have known plenty of muslim women who are as strong willed and not-gonna-put-up-with-anything as anyone. This is all somewhat ironic becuase I have an abiding interest in Islam and Islamic countries. In my experience Muslims are, in general, the most polite, kind and generous people in the world - and Muslim countries are FAR different to what we in the west imagine them to be.

What I really should have said was this: in countries where the state religion is Islam, women have a varying degree of structural, insituational and cultural hurdles to overcome. In some cases, these can be extremely oppressive, in others, almost non-existent.

Oh, and, hey, you think NY or Boston drivers are agressive? Man, you haven't seen aggressive until you've seen how women in Tehran drive! Seriously.



EDIT: a whole bunch of silly spelling mistakes

Gandalf Parker said:

Careful there. Thats an awful lot of countries. Including ones in Europe, members of NATO, ones in Africa and in the Pacific nations. Im not sure that "most" would apply unless you mean the arabic desert nations. Then it would probably be a safe statement. (my overseas muslim experience was in Turkey)

[Gandalf Parker]

alarikf said:What I really should have said was this: in countries where the state religion is Islam, women have a varying degree of structural, insituational and cultural hurdles to overcome. In some cases, these can be extremely oppressive, in others, almost non-existent.

Right. Its very different in Indonesia, Algeria, Albania, Bandladesh, Malaysia, Morocco, Somalia, Turkey, Nigeria. The countries with the largest muslim populations arent even in the arabian desert.

What we see are really a few women who feel they should not have to follow the local customs. It makes big news because their action agrees with our customs and rights. Im not saying they shouldnt have that right but its not some huge revolution.

They have the same problem looking at our countries. They find it odd that they CANNOT wear their veils whereever they want, Or that american muslims would hear "go back where you came from". To them, the big news would be the american woman who's husband can actually MAKE her get a job, Or can actually kick her out with no support unless she goes to a court and demands money.

Oh, and, hey, you think NY or Boston drivers are agressive? Man, you haven't seen aggressive until you've seen how women in Tehran drive! Seriously.

Do they have "asma Allah" bumper stickers? The will of Allah which actually has legal precedent in their courts.

[AMF]

Gandalf Parker said:
Do they have "asma Allah" bumper stickers? The will of Allah which actually has legal precedent in their courts.

Heh. Didn't see any bumper stickers. Was too busy jumping out of the way usually.

What does 'asma Allah' mean? I know the standard phrases, and I used to know a bit more Farsi and arabic, but now it's just limited to 'humdillah', 'inshalla' and stuff like that...