Water Magic

[NTJedi]

I have to agree with LDiCesare...
Curse of Atlantis is way way tooooo powerful... maybe if the cost was 2000 water gems the spell would be okay.

[RedRover]

Thanks to all!

Vicious Love: Impossible to implement? Certainly impossible to mod in Dom2, we just don’t have the tools. But are they impossible for Dom3? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Global Haze: You are right. I forgot to add a benefit. How about +1 morale bonus for friendly amphibious and aquatic units?

On the issue of the rarely-researched school, that sounds good to me. My intuition was telling me Evo 6, but my relative lack of empathy for Atlantis (which I don’t play much) impelled me toward the (timid) decision to mirror the Fire-based global spell. Sloppy move. I temporarily forgot the principle of dynamic equality and didn’t take the preferred lines of Atlantian/R’lyeh research into account. Evocation 6 is better, yes?

This might be an issue for the cost and path assignments for Water Way, as well. Once again, blindly copying a similar spell is no substitute for dynamic balance testing.

Just for grins, a revised Evocation list would look like:

Freezing Touch, Evo 0, W1
Slime, Evo 1, W1
Cold Bolt, Evo 1, W2
Geyser, Evo 1, W1F1
Acid Spray, Evo 1, W2F1

Cold BLast, Evo 2, W2
Rain, Evo 2, W2

Freezing Mist, Evo 3, W3A1
Acid Bolt, Evo 3, W2F1
Sea Squalls, Evo 3, W3

Water Strike, Evo 4, W1
Acid Rain, Evo 4, W3F1

Falling Frost, Evo 5, W3
Monsoon Rains, Evo 5, W3

Cooling Zephyr, Evo 6, W3
Global Haze, Evo 6, W5

Ice Strike, Evo 7, W2
Murdering Winter, Evo 7, W5
Acid Storm, Evo 7, W4F1

Maelstrom, Evo 8, W6

Niefel Flames, Evo 9, W5
Tidal Wave, Evo 9, W5

Don’t you think the Water-gem-generating Maelstrom at L8 is sufficient to draw the aquatic nation player up this list?
-If not, do you think Maelstrom should be a lower level?

Acid Spells: I do think that the acid-series spells (Spray, Bolt, Rain, Storm) might be used more if the Fire element was removed. In my own (solo) play, I’ve certainly never had occasion to seek them out, though I have tried them out of curiosity before going back to more efficient spells.
-Are they as much a dead-end in multiplayer games?

It might be reasonable to reconfigure the whole acid attack form to be fully water-based. After all, swamp-dweller bile breath is acidic and swamps tend to be water-themed (at least much more than fire-themed).
-Thoughts?

Rust Mist (Evo 2): How about making this E2W1 spell a W2E1 spell instead, shifting it from the Earth camp into the Water camp?

Anyone know of a hidden landmine that making this change would set off? If not, it might be worth testing.

On the cost issue, I was looking at Eyes/Fate, and the premium for a 100% kill on the Eyes was 150% of its base cost. Applying that to Second Sun gave a kill cost of 120, and that seemed too expensive. Turns out I misread Dispel—I thought it would take a base cost of 80 to get rid of Second Sun. Having reread the Dispel description, oops, not so. The base cost of Global Haze should have been in the 45-55 range (see below).

Do go on. I value your commentary.

Saber Cherry: Thank you. I always liked your jellyfish idea.

LDiCesare: On reviewing the Curse of Atlantis spell, I agree with you.

Curse of Atlantis is seriously overpowered as configured. Your suggestion about dominion is excellent.

One perception that I’ve developed over time is that it’s harder for the sea nations to amass a pile of Water gems than it is for land nations to amass a pile of their theme gem.
-Would you agree?

That said, a big boost to cost and better controls are definitely needed for this spell.

Benchmarks: The most expensive current spell is Astral Corruption at 166 Astral gems. IMO it is undesirable to match or exceed the highest cost in the best path with a Water spell of any sort.

There are two spells at 150 gems (Looming Hell, Arcane Nexus), two spells at 120 (Illwinter, Three Red Seconds), and two spells at 100 (Wish, Utterdark). I’m much more comfortable nerfing Curse of Atlantis down to a fair value of, say, 150 gems. I am partial to 150, which is like 100 for a Wish, +50% premium for being irreversible.

NTJedi: Thanks for your input.

-Have you ever been in a multiplayer game where a sea nation amassed 2,000 Water gems?
-What is the highest Water gem total you have seen amassed by a sea nation in a multiplayer game?

(BTW: Anyone should feel free to jump in on these questions. Practical benchmarks are important.)

TWEAKS & REVISIONS

Global Haze: Global. Evocation 6. Paths: W5. Cost: 50 Water gems.
A great cooling haze rises from the oceans. It blankets the world, raising the morale of friendly amphibious and aquatic creatures. The haze also reverses the effects of the Second Sun global spell (Ev 8)—the spell energies drain each other, mutually destroying both global effects.

[Design notes: Friendly aquatic and amphibious units receive a +1 morale bonus while this spell is active.]

Curse of Atlantis: Ritual. Alteration 9. Paths: W8. Cost: 150 Water gems.
One of the great ancient forbidden incantations, this spell reclaims a coastal province/island for the sea. The target province permanently sinks into the sea amid great disruption. This spell is risky to cast and much less likely to succeed in areas under hostile dominion. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: This spell changes the designation of the coastal province from land to sea, permanently—this cannot be reversed. Chance of success is 90% - 10% per point of hostile dominion. Since the curse causes the whole province to sink from below, domes do not affect or stop it. A full 80% of the population dies, as do all units and commanders without water breathing ability. Province structures (Temple, Lab, etc) except Fortresses are destroyed. Province defense is set to 0. Corpse count is set to 0 after this. Unrest is set to 200% after this. Growth scale is set to +3 after this. The converted province is permanently marked with a blue magic effect marker (i.e., a dome marker). The caster is automatically feebleminded and has 3 chances at 30% for additional afflictions.]

The new configuration does several things:
-First, the higher Level and high path means there will be a long delay until the capability comes on line.
-Second, dominion as the principal defense gives the defender more control over his vulnerability.
-Third, the automatic failure chance plus the certainty of affliction (and the chance of multiple afflictions) slow down the rate at which this spell can be used.

Given that the typical multiplayer game tends to be decided in 40 turns or so, pushing the time scale for the effective use of this spell this far out may be too much control. A casting of once a game in 20 multiplayer games or twice or more per game in 50 to 100 games is the frequency benchmark I’d like to see this spell hit.

Now a question for the experienced MP’ers:
In all your MP games that included Atlantis, in what percentage of them would it have been feasible (not necessarily smart) for the Atlantian player to drop 150 Water gems into a single spell?

-What about R’lyeh?

[deccan]

RedRover said:
The most expensive current spell is Astral Corruption at 166 Astral gems. IMO it is undesirable to match or exceed the highest cost in the best path with a Water spell of any sort.

It's blood slaves, not astral gems.

But I agree that Curse of Atlantis is still too powerful. It's just too much of a do-everything spell. It would be the best province disaster (80% population dead, better than Black Death!), best army destroyer (kills all non-waterbreathing units including SCs!!!), best unrest causing spell all-in-one, and gets rid of temple/lab as a bonus, which I think would be rather against the spirit of the game, regardless of what costs you impose on it.

[Vicious Love]

RedRover said:
Vicious Love: Impossible to implement? Certainly impossible to mod in Dom2, we just don’t have the tools. But are they impossible for Dom3? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Point taken.

Global Haze: You are right. I forgot to add a benefit. How about +1 morale bonus for friendly amphibious and aquatic units?

I thought Second Sun and Global Haze cancelled each other out? 50 gems may not be all that much, on a global mojo scale, but I still can't imagine anyone shelling out 50 water gems for no more than a +1 morale bonus to the rank-and-file.
At any rate, evocation 6 sounds good.

Don’t you think the Water-gem-generating Maelstrom at L8 is sufficient to draw the aquatic nation player up this list?
-If not, do you think Maelstrom should be a lower level?

Speaking of shelling out, you'd think Maelstrom would be some sort of incentive, but you forget that
A) Astral pearls will always be more valuable than water gems, even with these new spells available. I'm not saying astral needs to be nerfed, I'm simply saying it's more powerful. It's... thematic. Not all paths were created equal.
B) Clams can be produced long, long before a Maelstrom can be evoked, and yield a comparable return on investment.
C) Clams cannot be dispelled, and are unlikely to be lost. Actually managing to lose clams and researchers is one of the first signs of being doomed, doomed, doomed. Unless you've simply forgotten to research domes. Not a single one of which is an evocation.

Obviously, Maelstrom is worth casting, if you've already researched evocation 7 or 8 for unrelated reasons, but it would probably be unwise to squander one's research on a school which can't even summon Queens of Elemental Water.

Acid Spells: I do think that the acid-series spells (Spray, Bolt, Rain, Storm) might be used more if the Fire element was removed. In my own (solo) play, I’ve certainly never had occasion to seek them out, though I have tried them out of curiosity before going back to more efficient spells.
-Are they as much a dead-end in multiplayer games?

I imagine Caelian high seraphs and R'lyeh's starspawn make good acid flingers, what with the combo of water magic and a random. Removing the fire would take away the spells' STYLE, it would, and not lightly does one impoverish Dom 2's groove.
Besides, I'm told they're downright awesome. No resistance protects against them, and damage is more than halfway decent. Remove the fire, and you give water an immense advantage in precisely the area in which it should be one of the weakest paths. You also make fire just an ickle bit less valuable as a battlefield path, which is an awfully counterintuitive thing to do. If anything, we should be enhancing the power of burnination yet further. Or teaching anathemants to actually hit the friggin' target, but that's another issue altogether. Bloody Abysian precision.

After all, swamp-dweller bile breath is acidic and swamps tend to be water-themed (at least much more than fire-themed).

Nope, it's natural. And wet, as well, depending on whether you spit it out or summon some beasties to spit it out for ya. Pay attention!

Rust Mist (Evo 2): How about making this E2W1 spell a W2E1 spell instead, shifting it from the Earth camp into the Water camp?

Works for me. Wouldn't even deprive earth of all that much.

Now a question for the experienced MP’ers:
In all your MP games that included Atlantis, in what percentage of them would it have been feasible (not necessarily smart) for the Atlantian player to drop 150 Water gems into a single spell?

Not an experienced player, but I'd have to say "The ones in which they don't blow all their water income on clams and Water Queens". Anyone ever seen that happen?

[Turin]

Well I think the spell would be fine if it had a (70-enemydominionstrength*10 + friendly dominionstrength*10) % chance of success.(after all it costs as much as three waterqueens), so it should be powerful It would very rarely suceed against enemy capitals and generally wouldn´t help much offensively, but it would be an awesome spell for defense.
Right now it is rather pointless to have a 6+ water mage, so water magic needs some nifty highlevel spells.

[PDF]

Re Curse of Atlantis,
I don't agree much with the % chance of success idea : any spell costing 100+ gems and having a sizeable chance of *not* working will never be cast (except maybe by hoarders lol) !
The spell has to be made "balanced" but with 100% success chance, rather than ruin the game for one player either by succeeding or by failing !

[Turin]

Well with my formula it would have 100% chance of success in your dominion3 provinces. If you want to have it "kill" a capital or research center deep in the enemys homeland you have to pay for the risks. Plus it would make for very interesting sneaky dominion spreading strategys.

[RedRover]

Vicious Love:

Global Haze: Now I’m curious. What would you consider a fair bonus for the 50-point global? A +2 morale bonus? Something else? Enquiring minds want to know!

Astral vs. Water: I certainly agree with you on this. Astral thematically is the dominant path and that needs to be protected. But I would like to see a sea nation that can successfully stray from the Astral/Water combination.

Acid Spells: I was wondering if something like that might be the case. Just thought I’d raise the question. If the effects would be as significant as you say, then these should probably be left alone. You do tempt me to go back and play with those spells some more, though.

MP Question: Your thoughts mirror mine. I was hoping to get some concrete numbers to promote a rational discussion of the point. Exchanging opinions is interesting, but at some point data is needed to anchor things.


Deccan:

Doh! Yes, it is blood slaves, not astral gems. My bad. Thanks for the catch.

The extreme effects of the Curse of Atlantis spell stem from the nature of the event itself. It sinks a whole province. The game effects flow from the basic event. Would you have the PD continue to operate after the province is underwater? Ergo, the PD is reduced to 0. The event caused by the spell is supposed to be a more extreme disaster than those created by current spells—and the caster should be paying accordingly.

Let’s look at your notes:

Best Province Disaster:

Spell: CoA vs. Black Death
Path: W7 vs. D5
Gems: 150 vs. 15
Death 80% vs. 50% population loss
Unrest:200% vs.9%
Afflict 1-4 vs. --

Are you getting 10 times the punch from CoA? Not in terms of population death, though maybe in unrest, which repairs itself much faster than population.

Best Army Destroyer: No worse than invading the sea under Thetis’s Blessing and having it dispelled out from underneath you. But there’s certainly room in the nerf toolbox to soften that 100% loss of airbreathers. See below.

Best Unrest Spell: Looks to me like the unrest effects, as written previously, bite the sea player a lot harder than the land player. However, the peripheral unrests could certainly go away—I’m sure they would be somewhat tricky to code—I can’t think of any similar effect in Dominions 2.
-I must admit that in doing the 200% unrest, I was thinking about taking the province economically offline for 6-8 months, and not comparing the unrest effects of other spells (I am just beginning a new analysis of the spell tables and I estimate about two weeks before it’s bashed enough into shape to really use—and I wanted to get this thread started sooner rather than later).
-Actually, the 20% population left after the sinking is not remnants of the original population; it’s the initial repopulation of the new sea province by aquatic inhabitants. So a case could be made for dropping the unrest result completely. Seems reasonable to me.

Temple/Lab: Seems irrelevant to me—if the sea player takes it, the temple is razed anyway, and the loss of the lab is an equal disadvantage to both contenders.

Special Thanks: Your post did drive home one important fact to me. I neglected to say that the target province becomes independent. I should have.
-It was never the intention for this spell to give the land player a cheap, trashed sea province. It was intended to scorch the earth (so to speak) before the sea player moved in.
-There are certainly many ways to drive a province independent (and most of them cost about 25 gems), and none of them trash the target province the way this spell does. That trashing is part of the price of casting this spell. What’s left is no real prize, and that's intentional.
-As a side note, this spell also has a political cost in MP. It paints a nice target on the sea player who uses the capability in the face of significant opposition. It’s likely to put the user at the bottom of a big dogpile made of everyone else. And that should not be discounted.


TWEAKS & REVISIONS

Curse of Atlantis: Ritual. Alteration 9. Paths: W8. Cost: 150 Water gems.
One of the great ancient forbidden incantations, this spell reclaims a coastal or island province for the sea. The target province permanently sinks into the ocean amidst a great cataclysm. The spell is risky to cast, and much less likely to succeed in areas under hostile dominion. It can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: The target province becomes a sea province, permanently. The spell’s chance of success is 90% - 10% per point of hostile dominion. Since the curse causes the whole province to sink from below, domes do not affect or stop it. The following effects apply:

- 80% of the population dies.
- Provincial structures other than Fortresses are destroyed.
- Provincial defense is set to 0 and the province becomes independent. The converted province is permanently marked with a blue magic effect marker (i.e., a dome marker) to indicate its sunken status.
-Corpse count is reduced to 0 and Growth scale is reset to +3.
-All units in the province have a 20% chance to be killed outright (+/- 2%/Luck scale) in the cataclysm. Death counts as a single fatal hit with respect to luck items (which function normally).
-Surviving air breathers without water breathing or flight have a 50% chance to be killed by the inundation (+/-3%/Luck scale). Death counts as a single fatal hit with respect to luck items (which function normally).
-All survivors automatically rout as if defeated in battle.
-The caster is automatically feebleminded and has 3 chances at 30% for additional afflictions.]

I really like the feedback on this spell so far.

[Arralen]

Another way to ruin a province, this time using water gems. That's really what the game needs, as there are way too few ways to do that.

What about creating some water spells that actually build up a province (s population) ?

On the other hand I must agree that your suggestion has a way better chance to acutally find it's way into the game. Seemingly the developers are just to fond of weapons of mass destruction [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif[/img]

[PrinzMegaherz]

Curse of Atlantis should be depending on your dominion. Each point of your dominion raises the chance of the spell working by 10 percent, e.g. dominion 9 means 90 percent chance of success.
But of course, there should be an earth spell working in the opposite direction