Magic Scale

[Zen]

In Dom1 you could also convert Astral to RP.

[Yvelina]

I was talking about drain being suicide... now, if you are saying that Magic 3 is not worth the 40 design points over Magic 2, that may be perfectly reasonable. When I decided on magic 3, I mostly did it by comparing the loss of research to the loss of gold from death/sloth, and decided that magic 3 made sense. It is also the difference between getting to Alt2 in two turns, and having to take one more turn before sending my pretender on a rampage.

I can believe that for even slightly different pretender designs, magic 2 may be better than magic 3. But I have trouble imagining how drain can be a good idea. Do you mind explaining why you would take drain with Ermor? Even without drain, you can easily afford a monster pretender. Investing 6x40 more points in it will not allow you to do two things per turn, while it would deny you 6 more research points per mage.

As for the suggestion tha I use quilts of dwarves, I will just assume that you were joking. There are better uses for air gems in the early game, especially for Vanheim.

[Nagot Gick Fel]

Yvelina said:
As for the suggestion tha I use quilts of dwarves, I will just assume that you were joking. There are better uses for air gems in the early game, especially for Vanheim.

If Graeme is joking, then count me in the jokers bandwagon as well.

[archaeolept]

well, construction 2 vanheim gets a hammer; 3 air gems for +3 research, pretty darn early, if you wanted to go that route. Perhaps you haven't found a library...

as to early uses, air is pretty weak (though wyverns have been improved in zen's mod) until the rush to queens.

[Yvelina]

I always have my first air queen before turn 20. I hardly use air gems for anything else while there are air queens left, and I would go as far as trading hammers for air gems. I am frankly surprised that any air nation would use air gems before this... but that may explain why I have always ended with at least two air queens in every one of my Vanheim games, even when Man, Caelum and Pythium are in.

[archaeolept]

you might be under very difficult research; in which case investing in air gems might actually speed up your acquisition of the queens.

or there might be no other air nations; in which case you can be a bit lax in the rush.

[Turin]

drain 1 for ermor seems to be pretty resaonable.
your units get +1 mr, you will be behind in research anyway with ermor, but you mostly need only conjuration and construction anyway.

In one ermor game I´m in, I chose magic 3 and so far it has only hurt me. My undead are far easier to banish(-1MR compared to +1MR), my pretender could have 1 more 4point magic paths , I can´t research anyway, because it´s with very hard research settings and I must pump every death gem into wraith centurions just to stay in the game.

Taking drain2-3 though doesn´t make sense

[Agrajag]

Turin said:
but you mostly need only conjuration and construction anyway.

Unless you are playing a single-player game, and I must mention this as a single-player man.
There are plenty of great spells for Ermor all around the research table.
Utterdark, Well of Misery, Burden of Time are great globals for Ermor, also, Nether darts is pretty damn good for default Ermor.
Also, I've found its a nice idea to have some Earth magic on your Ermor (none default) pretender, it can give you good forging, a steady supply of earth gems (to convert into money, if you have to), a spell that creates a tower in one of your provinces (fortifications are hard to build as pennyless Ermor), Inulenrability for your pretender and nice globals like the mechanical militia.

[Cainehill]

Yvelina said:
I was talking about drain being suicide... now, if you are saying that Magic 3 is not worth the 40 design points over Magic 2, that may be perfectly reasonable. When I decided on magic 3, I mostly did it by comparing the loss of research to the loss of gold from death/sloth, and decided that magic 3 made sense. It is also the difference between getting to Alt2 in two turns, and having to take one more turn before sending my pretender on a rampage.

I've taken Drain 1 with Vanheim and done very VERY well, when the game ended from lack of interest (4 AIs, including the Caelum Norfleet had started) I think I may have been the only one holding my own or advancing against the AI'd nations.

I went with the assumption that Helheim can afford ... Skull Mentors, is it? Good death income, earth income, and dwarven hammer capable mages.

No doubt it wasn't optimal (nor was having Astral 3 or 4 on my Ghost King pretender), but as an experimental whimsy, it worked quite well. First through the use of skull mentors (yes, there are much better usages of death gems, especially at conjuration/summoning 6 and 9), and also by conquering past my dominion and setting researchers outside the area of drain - easy enough for any Vanheim theme to manage.