Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Cainehill]

Just to be perverse and go back on topic : How'd the game go Satyrday with Zen's newest mods? I've been checking, but haven't seen even the beta Versions up on his webpage, so I'm reduced to mere curiousity what people thought of the latest spell mod and the scale mod.

[alexti]

Cainehill said:
Just to be perverse and go back on topic : How'd the game go Satyrday with Zen's newest mods?

I think it hasn't happened.

[PDF]

To Cainehill, back on the Flying balance :
I don't think the Flying issue is comparable to SCs, Hoarding or many other in that Flying is a nation-specific huge advantage right from the start (for Caelum) or relatively early in the game(for blood nations).
Mech Militia et al. are not an option before mid-game, and not an option at all for many nations.
To illustrate this, in a pbem game, I (as TC) allied with Marignon and Ermor (BE) vs Caelum on turn 30-some. My allies+me were overall much stronger (in terms of income, research, gems, provinces) an yet Caelum manages to hold for 10 turns and bLasted most of Marignon and my armies.
And the game is on Hard research !

In another I'm playing Caelum (turn 25), just eradicated Arco main army (with Pretender), and on the next turn I turn against Machaka with all of my armies...
This is a just an unfair and unbalancing advantage, Caelum opponents just have no effective counter.

[Endoperez]

No effective counter against what? Masses of Caelian Archers backed up by few mages, masses of Caelian Infantry backed by some mages or lots of seraphs backed up by some archers/infantry?

Caelum's archers are quite good, but still die quickly if anything gets next to them. And they eat a lot. Fast Caelian infanty is quite bad, too. And the good ones are not only expensive but slightly slower as well. And the "lighter complexion" of Caelians that enables flight also makes them weaker than their human counterparts. I haven't tried them in MP, but I quess they will be quickly decimated if your enemy manages to surprise you in any way. And the mages are excellent, as they should.

I can see mountains blocking flyers, but I don't think swamps or forests would be much of a hinderance to them. Maybe in Dom3...

[The Panther]

The real problem is that once Caelum gets false horrors, which is not all that far into the game for the fastest researching nation, it gives that race a supreme advantage. A single Seraph can kill up to 10 PD reliably, except perhaps for Ulm or Jontunheim. And a Seraph with 2 archers can take those two nations too, losing maybe one archer in the first volley to Ulm and losing nothing to Jontun. Even if you lose one raiding force and take only 9 of 10 desired provinces, so what?

In what is still early game, Caelum can therefore take pretty much any province against ANYBODY that can be reached. Want three enemy provinces? No problem! How about 6? Getting harder, but sure. Ten? Yup, I have done that and more in a single turn in an MP game. It cannot be stopped without having a castle in every province.

As long as fliers can jump over provinces AND attack in the same move, flying will be an unbalanced ability. Thus making Caelum the best race for the early game and deep into the middle game. As for the end game, it may no longer be best, but will still be in the top 5 because of the early game advantages.

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
It cannot be stopped without having a castle in every province.

This is when you take your armies ans smash down his undefended watchtowers.

[The Panther]

Graeme Dice said:
This is when you take your armies ans smash down his undefended watchtowers.

Of course you can always strike back. But the fliers can strike three deep into enemy territory and the stronger land army can strike only one deep back.

I was getting 5-10 provinces and losing 0-8 each turn for like 15 turns against three opponents. I was also taxing many of those at 200% for multiple turns and using the money to get even more Seraphs and plenty more cheap archers to keep reloading. Everything I lost was easily replaced and then some. Everything my opponents lost was gone for good.

It was surprisingly easy to overrun my opponents with about 10-20 separate armies composed of one Seraph spamming false horrors plus 5 archers. I lost many of those sacrificial strike forces, but it simply made no difference in the long run.

And EVERY SINGLE TIME any one of my three opponents seiged one of my towers, I simply hit him back with a real army composed of my flying pretender, AQs as needed, draconians, hawks, and up to about 20 seraphs and maybe 40-60 archers from many strike forces, which I could fly in from every conceivable direction over amazingly far distances. I never once lost any of my own towers. Even better, it was typically easy to cut off the retreat path with my annoying fliers and poof any enemy who might have survived the battle.

Strategic flying is definitely overpowered. I have been on the receiving end of this strategy more than once and the dishing end but this one time. It is far more pleasant to be doing it than having it done to you.