2004 Presidential Election.

[Will]

Jack Simth said:
Apparently you missed a chunk of the conversation - Will was basically saying that the state shouldn't be allowed to restrict marriage to one man and one woman on the basis that it was a religious issue; it's a religious issue because it is defined Biblically. Murder is also defined Biblically, and it's not an strickly cultural issue because there are vastly different definitions of it in different cultures.

Jack, sorry, you must have missed a chunk of the conversation. I've been saying that the State shouldn't be restrictive of its definition of marriage, because it is not really a religious issue. The workings of marriage for a government have absolutely nothing to do with religion. Just because religion happens to deal with the same concept doesn't mean you get to force your religion's concepts on everyone else. That's why the whole "respecting the establishment thereof" bit was in the First Amendment. I'm sure you would be in an uproar if the situation was reversed, and Somebody Else's Religion(tm) was used by the government to dictate how your life could be led contrary to your religion.

The so-called social stability problem is a non-issue, so there is no reason for a gay marriage ban unless it is religious, or rooted in ignorance. The latter is simply wrong because it has no basis. The former is essentially imposing segments of a religion on people who do not need or want to accept that religion. In other words, it is not harming you if what you consider an immoral action is legal, but it does harm same-sex couples if what they consider moral and good is made illegal based on Someone Else's Religion(tm).

And Jack, I don't see how Instar was not civil to you. Perhaps not civil to your arguments, but IMHO those arguments are not very good ones. I've heard them all before, they weren't good then, they aren't good now, and frankly, the position does not deserve respect. That does not mean the person is not respected. If I am missing a personal attack in there somewhere, please point it out, but as of this moment, I don't see it.