Frozen Heart

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
2) MR does already seem to protect against it, or so it seemed to me when I tried it.

Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

So I assume that is the devs intent, and wouldn't argue with it. Also, it seems correct, as it is a Water-1 spell, even if it is Alt-6, so otherwise it would be seem to me a really cheap automatic hit.

Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

As for comparing to lightning, shock resistance IS currently working there, and it also requires hitting with a missile effect and accuracy (doesn't frozen heart automatically hit?).

Lightning has +7 precision, and the fact that it's A2 requires that you will already have a base precision of at least 12. 19 precision spells don't miss very often.

As for comparing to incinerate, well that too is a weenie auto-hit spell which I believe is resisted both by fire resistance and by MR.

Incinerate is certainly not affected by MR, and it tends to do less damage than the other fire spells anyways, so that doesn't matter too much.

[Endoperez]

Graeme Dice said:

Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

Forzen Heart is armor negating.

Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

Instant hit killing one (non-cold-resistant) human or comparable unit is not that frightening by the time one has level 6 spells. It is almost always two because you'll already have Quickness when you get Frozen Heart, but unless your enemy has all-undead armies lead by few living mages I don't think it will be automatic win.

This was written as if cold resistance worked against it, as I think it should. Frozen Heart already doesn't affect any inanimate targets, by the description. I think that means Statues and Golems, and might include elementals and the like. On the other hand, I think it *should* affect elemental royalties. Both thematically and by game mechanics.

[Graeme Dice]

Endoperez said:
Forzen Heart is armor negating.

That doesn't matter. It's still damage + 2d6OE - 2d6 OE, which can fairly easily work out to little or no actual damage with the small damage potential of frozen heart.

[Graeme Dice]

I've just ran some tests with frozen heart and Version 2.14. I tried it out against non-lifeless, non-cold immune troops such as ghouls and archers, against lifeless cold immune troops such as longdead, and against caelum troops. It will target longdead, if there are no other suitable targets, but will not damage them. It does not damage Caelum's troops either. It will kill non-cold immune troops, but not always with one hit as they may roll a lucky number for their damage reduction.

[deccan]

Thanks for the tests Graeme. That does help clear things up.

[PDF]

Graeme Dice said:
I've just ran some tests with frozen heart and Version 2.14. I tried it out against non-lifeless, non-cold immune troops such as ghouls and archers, against lifeless cold immune troops such as longdead, and against caelum troops. It will target longdead, if there are no other suitable targets, but will not damage them. It does not damage Caelum's troops either. It will kill non-cold immune troops, but not always with one hit as they may roll a lucky number for their damage reduction.

And about the Ghouls (or other non-mindless undead) : are they targeted ? Killed ? I'm pretty sure I saw a Bane killed by FH (that was the reason of the thread..), was I wrong ?

[Graeme Dice]

PDF said:
And about the Ghouls (or other non-mindless undead) : are they targeted ? Killed ?

Ghouls aren't cold-resistant, so yes, they are targeted and killed.

[PvK]

> Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

If it were, then twere another bug, since Frozen Heart says it's armor-negating.

> Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

If it's not an issue to you to have level-1 skill give a spell that can kill or greivously injure humans regardless of armor with practically no failure chance, then your tastes in game balance are simply quite different from mine. Which is what it is and ok.

> Lightning has +7 precision, and the fact that it's A2 requires that you will already have a base precision of at least 12. 19 precision spells don't miss very often.

Ok, but it can miss, and I've seen it miss many times. AFAIK it counts as a missile too and so has another resistance. It appears Frozen Heart can't miss.

> Incinerate is certainly not affected by MR,

Ah, thanks.

> and it tends to do less damage than the other fire spells anyways, so that doesn't matter too much.

Well, to me, it is a good spell to compare too, and an importantly deadly one compared to others - even other fairly good (but not great) fire spells. Again, because it never misses and skips armor, and does enough damage to kill most human-sized targets in 1 or 2 shots. I've seen many folks get into the hall of fame just by loaning them a Phoenix Rod for a few battles.

PvK

[Graeme Dice]

PvK said:
If it were, then twere another bug, since Frozen Heart says it's armor-negating.

That doesn't matter. You still get damage + 2d6OE - 2d6OE even when a spell is armour negating.

If it's not an issue to you to have level-1 skill give a spell that can kill or greivously injure humans regardless of armor with practically no failure chance, then your tastes in game balance are simply quite different from mine. Which is what it is and ok.

If a mage that costs 100 or more gold can't kill more than that cost in units during the course of the battle once you've done much spell research, then you have a balance problem. A single expensive unit is vulnerable, and has to be able to do more (hopefully much more) damage than its cost in order to be worthwhile.

Ok, but it can miss, and I've seen it miss many times. AFAIK it counts as a missile too and so has another resistance.

Spells always hit if they land in a square with a unit. This includes the spells with single target areas of effect like lightning and nether darts.

[PvK]

> That doesn't matter. You still get damage + 2d6OE - 2d6OE even when a spell is armour negating.

Ok, good to know.


> If a mage that costs 100 or more gold can't kill more than that cost in units during the course of the battle once you've done much spell research, then you have a balance problem. A single expensive unit is vulnerable, and has to be able to do more (hopefully much more) damage than its cost in order to be worthwhile.

Not really, for several reasons, such as:

* Mages can do other things besides kill units directly in battle.
* Hopefully, your mages don't die every time they appear in a battle.
* It's just not true that a unit has to do more damage in terms of gold than its own worth to be worthwhile.

Also, that reply doesn't address what I see as the main point of my remark, which was that there was extremely little chance of failure, and practically no way to counter, according to the original observation about Cold Resistance not working. Of course, recent observations refute that claim anyway, making this whole thread a bit silly at this point.


> Spells always hit if they land in a square with a unit. This includes the spells with single target areas of effect like lightning and nether darts.

Ok, but Incinerate and Frozen Heart have Precision 100, which means they always do hit their target square. Lightning has Precision 7, meaning there is a reasonable chance to hit, or sometimes to hit your own units. Huge difference there.

PvK