Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Ivan Pedroso]

Turin said:
Growth seems to be far better compared to order.

I ran a test game, where I gave one god order 1 and the other growth 1, order started with 166 income growth with 163. I just ended the turns after checking incomes.
After the second turn growth income jumped to 165 and after the 6th turn he was already at 167.

I suggest removing the extra 2% gold bonus growth gets, it is already a very worthwile scale withe the increased population growth effect.

Nevermind the following - it's wrong

Couldn't help doing a bit of algebra:

Income from province with Order+1 (on the N'th turn):
population / 200 * 1,06

Accumulated income with Order+1:
population / 200 * 1,06 * N

Income from province with Growth+1 (on the N'th turn):
population / 200 * 1,04 * 1,0003^N

Accumulated income with Growth+1:
population / 200 * 1,04 * Sum(i=1 to N of)[1,0003^ i]

The Last term in the above is a geometric series which adds up to:
Sum(i=1 to N of)[1,0003^ i] = (1 - 1,0003^(N+1))/(1 - 1,0003) - 1
Sum(bla bla)[bla bla bla] = (1,0003^(N+1) - 1) / 0,0003

Equating the two different accumulated incomes (Order+1 = Growth+1) gives:
1,06 * N = 1,04 * (1,0003^(N+1) - 1) / 0,0003

Here are the values of the left- and right-hand sides of this equation for some values of N:

Code:

---

N     Left(Order+1)  Right(Growth+1)  

1      1,06000	       1,040312

50    53,00000        52,399756

100  106,00000       105,591314

125  132,50000	     132,487750

126  133,56000       133,567808

---

All this (crap ) just to say that in terms of income Growth+1 overtakes Order+1 after 125 turns. If you choose +3, Growth will ovetake Order at turn 115.

[Turin]

Ivan Pedroso said:

lots of math sutff here

All this (crap ) just to say that in terms of income Growth+1 overtakes Order+1 after 125 turns. If you choose +3, Growth will ovetake Order at turn 115.

playtesting suggests that you have 1 zero too many, growth rate is 1,003 not 1,0003.
Secondly you have to factor in the administration bonus from castles, which incresaes with growth. If you do the test game you will see that growth´s income in a province with a watchtower will overtake order after turn 6 or 7. And after turn 10-11 the total accumulated income will be better than order´s.
Now growth has several other nice side effects(like better resource income, convenient bloodhunting/patrolling)
and that makes growth a nobrainer compared to order with that mod.

[atul]

Turin said:
playtesting suggests that you have 1 zero too many, growth rate is 1,003 not 1,0003.

Indeed, it would appear a province with 30 000 pop and growth3 dominion has an increase of 270 pop per turn - so growth would raise pop by 0.3% per scale. From the comments above, I assume it was meant to be only 0.03% increase per scale?

[Alneyan]

The basic growth value was 0.2%, and so I believe the .02% and .03% were typos. It has been increased to make Growth more worthwhile and, above all, to make Death a less appealing choice.

[Ivan Pedroso]

atul said:

Indeed, it would appear a province with 30 000 pop and growth3 dominion has an increase of 270 pop per turn - so growth would raise pop by 0.3% per scale. From the comments above, I assume it was meant to be only 0.03% increase per scale?

Yeah I used 1,0003 because Zen stated above that the growth rate was .03% - If he meant .3% then it should be 1,003. And also I wasn't aware of the admin/growth issue, I just thought that other castle stuff would be identical in the two situations. As is(almost) always the case, actual experiments beat dry calculations

@Turin: Could you tell me the connection between admin and growth ? (Is it in Liga's addendum ? or ?). And even without the added benefits of growth that you pointed out, I agree, that growth over order seems to be a no-brainer.

[Turin]

Ivan Pedroso said:
[
@Turin: Could you tell me the connection between admin and growth ? (Is it in Liga's addendum ? or ?). And even without the added benefits of growth that you pointed out, I agree, that growth over order seems to be a no-brainer.

Well my calculations suggest that it is admin value/2 added as a multiplier. So with growth 3 and a watchtower you get pop/200 *(1,12 (growth multiplicator) + 0,05(admin multiplicator) )

[Saber Cherry]

Zen,

I'm playing around with your spell mod, and noticed that Treelords receive no bonus when summoning vine beings, in contrast to their description. On closer inspection... you put #clearspec in the Treelord mods, which probably is the reason.

One other note - you changed the AOE for fire breath, but the fire breath that was changed was the Dragon God firebreath, not the fire drake which is actually in the spell mod. The have the same name ("Fire Breath") but different numbers.

[The_Tauren13]

Seems to me that heat and cold are no longer very important. What with both prod and growth giving 4% income, the 5% loss from the temp doesnt look like very much, when you consider that:
-the 10% supplies is of very marginal use
-4% income, 20% supplies, and .3% growth is much better than 5% income and 10% supplies
-in most cases 4% income and 15% resources is better than 5% income and 10% supplies
-1/4 of the time the scale will be closer to the desired temp (if you take it all the way to 3), so if you take cold 3 with a nation that prefers neutral temp, it will only act as (on average) 13.75% income loss, which is actually less damaging than only 2 turmoil points.

I think it would be better off being at least as damaging if not more so to help maintain the temperature as part of a nation's flavor, so I would suggest making it 7% income loss, just like the order scale. That way nations will typically stick with their prefered temp, but if you want to take some cold to e.g. help your ice devils, 1 point of order would make up for that. Now, I don't think this is possible with the modding tools, but it would be even better to make it hurt income and something else (resources?) to avoid just simply doubling up the order scale...

[PDF]

Graeme,
I'm not convinced by your arguments :
Nature *has* some good spells, sure, but that does not make green gems more valuable than the others. IMHO they are often pretty much useless unless you play a nature-oriented nation, which is not the case with Astral, Earth, Death or Fire gems. The only less useful gems are Water...
As for Vine Ogres being inferior to Lamias, true again, but Ogres are a lesser summon and rather make better damage-absorbers than Lamias. Lamias require a higher level to cast effectively, Vine stuff having easy "improving" items.

Eventually I don't think Ogres need a boost - or rather all other low level summons require a much more serious boost !

[ckfnpku]

I like (the idea of) the scales in the faeron test mod used in some of Soapyfrogs games. I haven't played 3 turns with them yet, so I don't know how balanced they are, but they seem to keep the flavor of the scales more, rather than mostly smudging the lines in the income department.

Those scales are:
order - effect on event freq is 3%
prod - 3% income, 25% resources
growth - 0.5% pop, 30% supply
luck - 15% event freq, 15% event good or bad

#turmoilevents 3

#deathsupply 30
#deathdeath 5

#slothincome 3
#slothresources 25

#misfortune 15
#luckevents 15