Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinter

[Boron]

The main problem is that they want to know everything .
They play normally mainly Victoria , for this game there is an excellent online manual available at http://victoria.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

If something like this exists for Dominions 2 they would be very pleased . I don't know something like that though .
Sunrays site is excellent but the most essential parts , the 30 pages basics from the manual are not covered .

They want to know exactly that though in order to judge how Dominions 2 is compared to e.g. Victoria or Hoi II .

They don't like Roleplaying too much so they would prefer facts instead of a guide what to do that they can make their own strats .
If you want you can publish your helpfiles though maybe they like them also

[Alneyan]

Endoperez, I believe you did not get many answers (this post got nominated for "Understatement of the year") because most readers of your post were already seasoned players and frequent forum users: the players least likely to benefit from your proposal. Getting the opinion of the players beginning playing Dominions would be best... but they may be daunted by the sheer scope of the game.

Something I considered setting up was a sort of "training" game, with beginning players and a more seasoned player, who would be able to give pointers and to explain odd things. It could either be a game against the AI (with a few players sharing the same nation, and thinking of strategies), or a small multiplayer game with a nation per player. But the problem is the same as for your own proposal: is there truly any interest? Good question, and I will thank anyone answering it.

Boron, a Wiki was started for Dominions, but very little was written in it. I do not know what was the intended scope of the Dominions Wiki though, but I suspect it is another case of "lack of interest". The Wiki is available here.

I also have this problem. I have tried to teach several of my friends how to play dom2. And they just couldn't figure out why I liked it so much since it seemed to them a recruit unit attack recruit attack... stlye game. I even brought my friends over so I could teach them on my game.

[Therlun]

hiho, i'm the Therlun Boron spoke of.

and indeed, the demo did not make a very good impression on me (i even remembered playing it a loooong time ago, with the same result).

while i'm pretty sure not all of what i disliked is linked to missing game-knowledge, several things certainly are.
i dont think the manual alone will help much, though.

personally i dont need to see advanced game content (e.g. high level summons) to buy a game. i want to know what makes it a good game. and the demo completely fails here.

if it glances at PBEM-MP games-> great! but how should i know that before buying, if it is a real pain to arrange/start a MP session? (if it is possible with the demo at all)

if it has a very complex battle system with a distinctive balancing offering endless possibilities for army composition -> fantastic! but how shall i see that if in the most cases i dont even know if an attack/spell did any damage/use at all?

this and a hundred other little issues prevent me from liking dom2, simply because i dont understand/know them, and it is very difficult to find them out "by hand".

many of my problems with the game could probably be solved by playing a few sessions(full game) and the complete game documentation.
the point is, i cant be sure! perhaps the game is the confusing, fiddly mess the demo was (for me).

i dont know for sure how to solve the demo issue.
however i know it is pretty uninviting right now.

[Alneyan]

Therlun said:if it glances at PBEM-MP games-> great! but how should i know that before buying, if it is a real pain to arrange/start a MP session? (if it is possible with the demo at all)

if it has a very complex battle system with a distinctive balancing offering endless possibilities for army composition -> fantastic! but how shall i see that if in the most cases i dont even know if an attack/spell did any damage/use at all?

Hello, and welcome! The first point should be the easier to check: a look at the multiplayer discussions forums will show the current activity in the field of multiplayer games, and it *should* be possible to host a game with the demo (though that would require all players to use the demo to the best of my knowledge).

The second point is another matter: Dominions does provide a lot of information, but most of it is not made available directly. More specifically, you can replay your battles, and see what went correctly (and what didn't), but you will not get direct output saying that "the Fire Darts spell dealt major damage to the enemy army".

This can make for some interesting experimentation, but you should be able to find specific information you need on these boards, if you would rather not go into the lab yourself for some experiments.

Liga how did you manage to teach 14 people how 2 play dom2. Every time I try I fail miserably and end making the person hate the game.

[sushiboat]

As a newbie who played the demo in late December 2004 and bought the game shortly thereafter, the lack of a manual didn't bother me. The in-game information -- mouseovers and right-click -- told me much of what I wanted to know. I will say, however, that spell and item descriptions are often so vague as to be useless. Even now, before I try a new spell or item that requires a substantial investment, I do a search on this forum to see what it really does and whether people feel it is worth the cost. Of course, unless the manual's descriptions are expanded quite a bit -- which seems impractical -- I don't see a way around the problem. As the game reviews say, the game has a steep learning curve. That comes with its complexity and richness.

Therlun's comments just go to show that this game (or anything) isn't for everyone. Some people won't like it no matter how detailed the information is. There are some aspects that I don't like, but I see them as minor flaws in a very enjoyable game. Other won't get past the flaws.

[liga]

I have tryed and asked the devs if I could include the original manual in the addenda to provide an electronic full (or at lesat with the top of knowledge) version that could be give to people an idea of the deep of the game ... but i got not a real answer .. i think that they prefer to keep the original manual just only in the official game.

I'm be able to get new adept (at the moment we are in 14 in my group playing dom2) making lan party and introducing the game to the new player in hot seat sessions.

Anyway as soon as we got permission form the devs I will be really happy to help in preparing a manual for beginner and one for advanced players!

good luck and good play
Liga

[johan osterman]

liga said:
I have tryed and asked the devs if I could include the original manual in the addenda to provide an electronic full (or at lesat with the top of knowledge) version that could be give to people an idea of the deep of the game ... but i got not a real answer .. i think that they prefer to keep the original manual just only in the official game.

...

Actually this has little to do with illwinter and more to do with shrapnel. Shrapnel considers the full manual a selling point of the game, a reason not to go with a pirated version, which is why the manual is not available as a pdf. Whether or not this has had an adverse or positive effect on the sales is all but impossible to know, but according to shrapnel their experience has been that a printed manual, and lack of electronic one, is a good selling point. Dom 1 used a pdf manual, which was a little more comprehensive than the dom2 manual, of course that lead to some criticism as well.

[liga]

johan osterman said:
Actually this has little to do with illwinter and more to do with shrapnel. Shrapnel considers the full manual a selling point of the game, a reason not to go with a pirated version, which is why the manual is not available as a pdf. Whether or not this has had an adverse or positive effect on the sales is all but impossible to know, but according to shrapnel their experience has been that a printed manual, and lack of electronic one, is a good selling point. Dom 1 used a pdf manual, which was a little more comprehensive than the dom2 manual, of course that lead to some criticism as well.

Was not my intention go into the commercial strategy of both Illwinter abnd Shrapnelgames ... anyway I think that without an "official" authorization both form IW and SG I would not
start any work with part of the official manual in it!

... and about how I have teached 14 people the game ... after a brief introduction to the game I have made them play a Lan game with me as a 'Living manual' ...

good play to all!
Liga