The Vine Ogre

[The_Tauren13]

Boron said:
Fiends of Darkness or Devils are much stronger then Vineogres and are about as cheap also .
Especially the soul contract generated Devil is extremely cheap and does require less magetime also then vine ogres .

Sure, but thats comparing them to the best unit in the game for its cost (a devil), but I cant say I know much about fiends.

Boron said:
So i wonder too where that consensus that vine ogres are overpowered comes from

From the simple fact that most people I play against get them, and I get them every game I play.

[Graeme Dice]

Saber Cherry said:
For reference... here are the relative simbat powers of a few meat shields.

Unless these numbers take into account positioning, and multiple attacks on a single target they don't really mean too much.

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:
Unless these numbers take into account positioning, and multiple attacks on a single target they don't really mean too much.

They ignore positioning; eveything is assumed to be in range of everything else. Multiple attacks are allowed (originating from or terminating on any unit). But I don't think positioning makes the numbers invalid in this case. The only times when positioning is really important are when projectiles, area effect weapons, heat/cold/poison auras, trample, or magic are involved... or when one group outnumbers another group by a factor of 24:1 or so (depending on the size). None of these play a role in this scenario, so I doubt the numbers differ from reality to a noticable degree, aside from the routing issue, which would make vine units and undeads relatively much more potent compared to humans, but not change their balance relative to each other.

[FrankTrollman]

Vine Ogres are ricoculously good, and Corpse Constructs are way too crappy. Both of these are true.

Personally, I'd just like Vine Ogres to eat. This would make them chew up 2 supplies each, and provide a good solid reason for Nature Mages to back up the Vine Ogres. As is, people are summoning armies of like 200+ Vine Ogres and sitting around on them waiting for wars to break out. That's the part that's not cool. It isn't that people are grabbing medium sized piles of Vine Ogres for use as early game meat shields - it's that you can put so very very many of them in a single pile that is so painful. They could need to eat and have forest survival. It would be great.

BTW, Terrain Survival should make you need half as many supplies while in that terrain, in addition to having a 50% chance of ignoring a starvation hit. That would encourage people to store Vine Ogres in the woods, where they are supposed to be...

---

On a different but related note, Corpse Constructs should be immune to banishment. They could still require undead leadership, just not actually be undead. That would give them a reason for existence that they currently don't have. Even with a Staff of Storms, it's pretty hard to justify spending a whole turn of spellcasting just to get 6 Corpse Men, the fact that it also costs an actual Air Gem is just icing on the cake.

And they should carry clubs. Or attack with both fists. Or know Kung Fu. Or something. Right now, they have such a bad skill set that the craptastic weapon line makes them too terrible.

-Frank

[tinkthank]

1. I am taking "overwhelming consensus" from the thread on Low Level Summons. There is a consensus that no-one ever spends gems on them except for Vine Ogres, which are a great bargain.
2. I do NOT mean by this that the VO is overpowered absolutely (compared to all other units) -- what a stupid thing to want to say!
3. I do NOT mean that the VO should be balanced compared to all the other chaff out there which no-one ever gets. There is just no way that the dev team will be able to balance all the summons out in an upcoming patch! I thought I would stick to the small things that people do use.
4. That a VO is inferior in every way to, say, a devil, or a FoD, etc. is making a point in my book: Devil Factories are no-brainers.
Maybe it is just a silly idea to want to balance any one unit out without changing the entire game. So... I'll retract the idea for now ... but would like to keep it in mind for future patches or dom3.

[Boron]

tinkthank said:
4. That a VO is inferior in every way to, say, a devil, or a FoD, etc. is making a point in my book: Devil Factories are no-brainers.
Maybe it is just a silly idea to want to balance any one unit out without changing the entire game. So... I'll retract the idea for now ... but would like to keep it in mind for future patches or dom3.

To setup Devil Factories takes quite some time . You might be rushed to death meanwhile already by Pangenea or Vanheim .

And with blood there are so many other choices like IDs and ADs so a devil is not a no-brainer .
And vs. a Wrathful Squad devils suck bigtime also .

The only thing in Dominions where i would maybe use the word no-brainer is maybe Caelum . They are unfair , good troops and the best earlygame - midgame mages .

Really quickly caelum researches quickness + lightning bolt . That's already 2 dead troops per caelum mage per battleturn for most nations . Shortly after they can either rush to AQs or Alteration 6 for false horror spamming + ultraunfair raiding .

So caelum is my no-brainer number 1 .

[BigDaddy]

FrankTrollman said:
... As is, people are summoning armies of like 200+ Vine Ogres and sitting around on them waiting for wars to break out. That's the part that's not cool. It isn't that people are grabbing medium sized piles of Vine Ogres for use as early game meat shields - it's that you can put so very very many of them in a single pile that is so painful. They could need to eat and have forest survival. It would be great.

-Frank

If your enemy has giant groups of vine ogres, he probably also has a good sized group of Ivy Kings/Treelords, and your problem are likely a lot more significant than just a bunch of vine ogres.

(spelling corrected)

[FrankTrollman]

If your enemy has giant groups of vine ogres, he probably also has a good sized group of Ivy Kings/Treelords, and your problem are likely a lot more significant than just a bunch of vine ogres.

I don't see how that follows at all. 200 Vine Ogres is just 10 Crones with hats working for 10 turns. Or 10 Daughters with Hats and Sticks for 10 turns. Or some combination thereof, subject to the relative availability of gems and money.

In any case, 200 VOs is a reality by turn 20, while a good sized group of Ivy Kings probably is not.

-Frank

[Graeme Dice]

FrankTrollman said:
As is, people are summoning armies of like 200+ Vine Ogres and sitting around on them waiting for wars to break out.

200 vine ogres will be easily defeated by bane lords that are properly equipped. This will also be a fraction of the cost, both in gems and mage time.