Random Picks and Modding...

[Saber Cherry]

Living Ermor has non-sacred priests.

[Verjigorm]

I see... If you see where I am going with the example above, there are many instances in the game where units are given substantial cost bonuses, regardless. Most Holy units are sacred, but few take into account the cost increase for sacredness, and some do not even take into account the actual cost of Holy magic--cite also the Monk, cost 30gp, H2; that is unless, the Monk's "body" as Scott mentions is worth only 10gp and then, his sacredness is still free OR included with the cost of H2.... That still leaves the conundrum of units like the Theurg.

[Graeme Dice]

Verjigorm said:That still leaves the conundrum of units like the Theurg.

Well, theurgs are cheap because they can't really accomplish much without a large set of communicants backing them up. Theurgs and arch theurgs have base encumbrances that are extremely high for most spellcasters as it is assumed that you will have many communicants around.

[Verjigorm]

If you take a look at the Arch Theurg, note that:
H4 = 150gp
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = 10gp
----------
= 380gp

Thus he has likely paid for H4, and he has 2 more points of basic encumbrance than the Theurg. He has received, apparently, a discount for his random book and doesn't have to pay for his body. Removing H4 cost:
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = ?20gp?
----------
= 240gp
* 1.5
----------
= 360gp

Assuming his body cost ~13gp, we get 380gp, so he could have paid for sacredness instead, but not both. Communion in combat is not the only factor, either, as Arch Theurgs can be very powerful ritual casters. I'm not fond of outside-the-norm unit comparisons (they tend to be ludicrously exaggerated), but, I could have a unit with Enc 50 with paths of 3F3E3~? ( ~? = Linked full random) who would be extraordinarily useful in ritual, but almost useless in combat. How much does he cost?

[Scott Hebert]

Verjigorm said:
If you take a look at the Arch Theurg, note that:
H4 = 150gp
S3 = 150gp
A2 = 60gp
W = 10gp
? = 10gp
----------
= 380gp

Well, you've undervalued the ?. Assuming a full-random pick (which I think is safe in this case), you have to calculate the cost of a 4/2/1 split, a 3/3/1 split, a 3/2/2 split, and a 3/2/1/1 split, weigh them according to the probability of attaining such a split (0.125 each for the first three, 0.625 for the last), and then add to find out how much that '?' is worth.

At a guess, probably between 25-30g.

I could have a unit with Enc 50 with paths of 3F3E3~? ( ~? = Linked full random) who would be extraordinarily useful in ritual, but almost useless in combat. How much does he cost?

Well, see, that depends on whether he's with Pythium or Pangaea. If the former, 100g. If the latter, 500g and capital-only.

[Scott Hebert]

Just as an aside on the whole 'sacred unholy' thing, I noted that Desert Tombs C'tis have them, but those are summoned, not recruited. Also, by screenshot, the Keeper of the Tombs are Holy-2 but not Sacred.

Anyway, I'm through Caelum, and here's the new 'special' values:

Fly: 20
Trample: 10
Research: 10/pt.
Sceptic: 50 (includes Stealthy(0))
Healing: 20

Again, this is in Name/Current Value/Calculated Value format.

C'tis:

Taskmaster,40,36 (does this have animal awe?)
Commander of C'tis,40,38
Lizard Lord,60,48
High Priest of C'tis,120,85
Hierodule,40,38
Sauromancer,180,219
Shaman,110,103
Lizard King,280,217
Empoisoner,110,117

Desert Tombs C'tis:

Keeper of the Tombs,110,103

Miasma C'tis:

Marshmaster,220,211.75

Arcoscephale:

Scout,20,20
Mounted Commander,60,60 (this tells me I'm on to something about the 'mounted' thing)
Hoplite Commander,40,33
Hypaspist Commander,45,35
Strategos,65,45
Priestess,110,107
Mystic,180,166.875
Astrologer,180,187

Arcoscephale, Golden Era:

Myrmidon Champion,35,34
Chariot Commander,70,76
Wind Lord,175,118
Engineer,60,65
Icarid Champion,50,51.5
Philosopher,50,52
Sceptic,50,54

Caelum:

Caelian Scout,20,47
Storm General,35,59
Seraph,100,154
High Seraph,175,303.5
Seraphine,90,108

Caelum,Return of the Raptors:

Seraph,140,154
Harab Seraph,90,100
Harab Elder,270,277

(Yes, Caelum is under-priced just about across the board.)

Working on more... don't know exactly when I'll have it all up.

[Scott Hebert]

Well, theurgs are cheap because they can't really accomplish much without a large set of communicants backing them up. Theurgs and arch theurgs have base encumbrances that are extremely high for most spellcasters as it is assumed that you will have many communicants around.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with this and STRONGLY. Theurgs have no business being that cheap. They accomplish plenty for Pythium. They research quite decently well, especially considering they are sacred. Compare them to Mictlan, who has to pay at least 80g more for the same number of paths. The only nations where the Theurg wouldn't be a good researcher are ones that have even BETTER researchers (Man, Caelum, and GE Arco spring to mind).

They are natural communion makers. Unlike the Theurg Communicant (whose only purpose is to 'take it for the team'), the Theurgs can actually do stuff while in a Communion. I've heard people say that their Communion Slaves 'just stand around', but that has never been my experience.

Yes, they have rather high Encumbrance. However, I don't think it's because of their 'communion abilities'. I believe it's due to the fact that they wear heavy robes, which isn't modeled on armor because they didn't want it to be removable. I can point out several other nations that have high-encumbrance mages (Abysia's Anathemants come to mind) but don't have the Communion ability that Pythium does.

[Scott Hebert]

Verjigorm said:
I see... If you see where I am going with the example above, there are many instances in the game where units are given substantial cost bonuses, regardless. Most Holy units are sacred, but few take into account the cost increase for sacredness, and some do not even take into account the actual cost of Holy magic

Perfectly true. OTOH, there are commanders (like the Pan, especially in New Era) who get gimped beyond reason for no apparent reason.

--cite also the Monk, cost 30gp, H2; that is unless, the Monk's "body" as Scott mentions is worth only 10gp and then, his sacredness is still free OR included with the cost of H2.... That still leaves the conundrum of units like the Theurg.

The Monk actually has a negative 'stat cost'. By my rubric, it should cost 45g. 10g for Infantry Commander (it can build fortresses and equip things), 10g for being Stealthy, 20g for Holy-2, 10g for Leadership 25 (I think; I'm going from memory), and about -5 for stats.

The base priest, OTOH, does cost only 30g (the difference between the Priest and the Monk is Leadership 25 instead of 10, and Stealthy).

[Scott Hebert]

Saber Cherry said:
Living Ermor has non-sacred priests.

Actually, Saber, it's not marked. I deliberately went in and modded BE Ermor's Thaumaturgs Holy... and it doesn't show up. I thought I had checked Upkeep changes, and saw that yes, indeed, they are Holy, but I may have mistaken that.

I do know one of two things, though:

1) Unholy priests cannot be Sacred.
2) Unholy priests may be Sacred, but it is never marked.

Can anyone think of a reason why Commanders can't be Unholy?