ArcoBlood Mod Finished

[quantum_mechani]

Scott Hebert said:

I do not believe I said that, or anything remotely resembling that. Please do not agree to overgeneralizations of my statements, as they will make people believe I said one thing when I did not.

But is the limitation moral in nature? There's also the question of the ability to command. Miracles, whatever people believe, cannot be called upon at will by humans, being as they are a special manifestation of God's will. One can ask for a miracle, and one may receive it in response to that asking, but the power is not human's.

Magic normally involves a formulaic ability to impose one's will on the surroundings. The distinction, that in miracles it is God's will, and in magic it is the human's will, is important.

And as for those people who believe they can command the power of God, or those that believe their ability for magic comes from elsewhere, I think they are confusing the idea of miracle and magic.

I was not trying to over generalize you statements, I was merely pointing out that you were barking up the wrong tree about lacking evidence for the non-existence of a god.

I don't see how the distinction between whose will it is matters, only the potentially dangerous actions they may take based on their beliefs. And I have seen no evidence that those who believe in miracles are any more or less dangerous than those that believe in magic.

[Scott Hebert]

*shrugs* Again, I would point to Chesterton's Orthodoxy for people who want to read about a rather unorthodox way to the Faith (from Atheism). Lewis is also good for this.

As for why the will matters, I am simply trying to explain the Catholic position.

There are certainly many more basic questions to attend to than the difference between magic and miracles.

Working off of Endo's point, though, if you sell the potion... can you imagine the deaths that could be caused by it?

[quantum_mechani]

Scott Hebert said:
As for why the will matters, I am simply trying to explain the Catholic position.

And I am simply trying to get to the bottom of the belief that those who believe in magic need treatment. Since BD was arguing from the secular position that they are a danger to themselves and society, I assumed there was a secular argument to support this.

[Scott Hebert]

I wouldn't know. I was simply explaining the religious argument, in case it was not clear.

About the best secular argument I could come up with is that people who believe in magic are most likely delusional. I would then be forced to agree with you that those who believe in miracles (or, at least, that they are working miracles) are similarly delusional.

[quantum_mechani]

Scott Hebert said:
I wouldn't know. I was simply explaining the religious argument, in case it was not clear.

About the best secular argument I could come up with is that people who believe in magic are most likely delusional. I would then be forced to agree with you that those who believe in miracles (or, at least, that they are working miracles) are similarly delusional.

Amazingly enough then, we seem to be in agreement.

[Scott Hebert]

Amazingly enough then, we seem to be in agreement.

What is so amazing? I am human; I have to live in the real world, same as you.