ArcoBlood Mod Finished

[BigDaddy]

Johan,

It's very interesting that you brought that up. It is the belief of Catholics that those who live a clean life (living the way they know is right) can be "saved by grace." Good people aren't necessarily sent to hell. Particular religions that have beliefs in clean living are Buddhism, most christian religions, and Islam. The real point here is just to be true to yourself, and do what you honestly believe is right. It helps, of course, if you have moral guidance of some type.

[johan osterman]

BigDaddy said:
Johan,

It's very interesting that you brought that up. It is the belief of Catholics that those who live a clean life (living the way they know is right) can be "saved by grace." Good people aren't necessarily sent to hell. Particular religions that have beliefs in clean living are Buddhism, most christian religions, and Islam. The real point here is just to be true to yourself, and do what you honestly believe is right. It helps, of course, if you have moral guidance of some type.

Well, that still leaves the problem that the only way to choose between the set of possible behaviours is to presuppose that one of the betting outcomes is going to obtain. In essence you have a betting situation where you have an infinite set of possible bets and possible states, and you have no information availible by which to discern what state is likely to obtain, besides from information you gain by presupposing that one particular state will obtain, which is question begging. Not only that, you also have no information what the reward will be for each bet dependent on the state that obtains is, besides, once again, any info you come by by presupposing the state you are betting on.

[BigDaddy]

johan osterman said:
Well, that still leaves the problem that the only way to choose between the set of possible behaviours is to presuppose that one of the betting outcomes is going to obtain. In essence you have a betting situation where you have an infinite set of possible bets and possible states, and you have no information availible by which to discern what state is likely to obtain, besides from information you gain by presupposing that one particular state will obtain, which is question begging. Not only that, you also have no information what the reward will be for each bet dependent on the state that obtains is, besides, once again, any info you come by by presupposing the state you are betting on.

Johan,
Really you are making things too difficult. Most religions have a set of rules that shows a proper moral path, which Catholics believes can allow you to be saved by grace.

But it is even simpler than that. Do you KILL people? Do you CHEAT on your spouse? Do you STEAL? Do you LIE? Do you WORSHIP the things you have or that other people have such that you are consumed by greed or rage?

Admittedly, we are ALL GUILTY of some of these things. Now ask yourself: Do I try not to do these things? Do I feel guilty when I do these things?

That is the law of God.

If you are a student of philosophy, which I suspect you might be, you will easily find another arguement! Likely one concerning pleasure on earth, or the existence of heaven. A mass murderer had an excellent grasp of philosophy and could successfully defend his theory that murder was good (can't remeber off hand which murderer).

[Zen]

If you are a student of philosophy, which I suspect you might be, you will easily find another arguement! Likely one concerning pleasure on earth, or the existence of heaven. A mass murderer had an excellent grasp of philosophy and could successfully defend his theory that murder was good (can't remeber off hand which murderer).

Of course, the other side is amusing. That a faithful devotee of religion could also successfully "defend" his theory that religion is good.

Awfully high on that pedestal.

[BigDaddy]

Zen said:

Of course, the other side is amusing. That a faithful devotee of religion could also successfully "defend" his theory that religion is good.

Awfully high on that pedestal.

I assumed I wouldn't have to discuss religions positive effect on society.

You have colored that particular arguement with the spirit of another one. Except for the second to last comment, the entire arguement is one you will find in any philosphy class. That is why it was finished with the portion you quoted.

quantum_mechani said:

Do you not think it is possible that an aversion to such things might be ingrained by society and/or (and I hesitate to take the discussion in this direction) evolution?

Of course. I knew that that possibility would be mentioned. I would suggest asking thugs in prison if they where wrong to kill, but I have no idea what they would say. I'm sure, though, that many would say they were sorry that they got caught.

[Zen]

BigDaddy said:
I assumed I wouldn't have to discuss religions positive effect on society.

I'd actually rather you discuss the positive effect of mass murder on society. As it's incredibly prevalent in and outside of religion.

Just because something has a positive effect (purely perspective) doesn't mean it's overall impact is equated one way or another.

Even if you could possibly understand the scope of the entirety of something like "Religion" or "Murder".

[BigDaddy]

Zen said:

I'd actually rather you discuss the positive effect of mass murder on society. As it's incredibly prevalent in and outside of religion.

Just because something has a positive effect (purely perspective) doesn't mean it's overall impact is equated one way or another.

Even if you could possibly understand the scope of the entirety of something like "Religion" or "Murder".

This sounds like more fun, huh? Well:

Mass murder helps society:
-weak and diseased individuals are often easy targets leading to a better gene pool
-stolen/looted money is a great influx to the economy, especially when the murder is of someone who is rich
-stupid or easily misled people can be encouraged to kill themselves in group "suicides"
-murdering people can benefit murderers that derive pleasure from knowing they are personally powerful
-women are often killed by mass murderer, which helps to restrain population growth

I don't think mass murder is commonplace today, however, it does still exist. Although I might be inclined to agree that it is SURPRISINGLY commonplace.

Negative aspects of religion:
-religion is often used to control people
-religion is often used as an excuse to commit mass murder and ethnic cleansing
-religion is used to emasculate, without surgery, many otherwise strong men
-religion is often used as a cover for cowardice
-religion is often used to exclude perfectly fine individual (self-rightousness)
-religion is often a source of unhealthy pride

As for understanding the scope these practices, I think that it is important to try, but impossible to succeed.

ahh, why'd you skip me Arryn.

[Kristoffer O]

BigDaddy said:

Of course. I knew that that possibility would be mentioned. I would suggest asking thugs in prison if they where wrong to kill, but I have no idea what they would say. I'm sure, though, that many would say they were sorry that they got caught.

I've visited a prison with a couple of my students and talked to a sentenced murderer. I find it likely that he was sorry that he was caught, but his main concern was some kind of regret. He repeatedly told my students that 'it is very easy to kill a human'. He had a son and wanted a new life outside the prison.

Everyone knows that it is wrong to kill, at least in the eyes of society. Most people understand that if you want to live in it you have to abide by its rules. Most people can also relate to or come up with the notion that you might not want to do to others what you yourself do not want them to do to you. Psychopaths perhaps lack this ability, but can still be taught the implications of not following the rules of society.

[BigDaddy]

Kristoffer O said:

I've visited a prison with a couple of my students and talked to a sentenced murderer. I find it likely that he was sorry that he was caught, but his main concern was some kind of regret. He repeatedly told my students that 'it is very easy to kill a human'. He had a son and wanted a new life outside the prison.

Everyone knows that it is wrong to kill, at least in the eyes of society. Most people understand that if you want to live in it you have to abide by its rules. Most people can also relate to or come up with the notion that you might not want to do to others what you yourself do not want them to do to you. Psychopaths perhaps lack this ability, but can still be taught the implications of not following the rules of society.

Thats quite interesting actually. I defends my original preface. More importantly, I want to direct anyone who can't just accept religions as they are to join a philosophy class. Preferably contemporary moral issues. Religion is only as much as you put into it. Oh, and whenever you're in a PHIL class argue with your proffesor whenever you can. I doubt you'll ever win, but maybe, and you'll learn a ton.

[quantum_mechani]

BigDaddy said:

But it is even simpler than that. Do you KILL people? Do you CHEAT on your spouse? Do you STEAL? Do you LIE? Do you WORSHIP the things you have or that other people have such that you are consumed by greed or rage?

Admittedly, we are ALL GUILTY of some of these things. Now ask yourself: Do I try not to do these things? Do I feel guilty when I do these things?

That is the law of God.

Do you not think it is possible that an aversion to such things might be ingrained by society and/or (and I hesitate to take the discussion in this direction) evolution?