Archery poll

[Gandalf Parker]

I figured everyone would be down on slingers but I find them useful. Not so much as deadly archers, but I think they serve a purpose and it is in line with their logic. I find that I can cheaply create a cloud of small rocks flying at an army. This is sufficient to rout many of the cheaper bulk units (yeah I know, you disdain using them also) and things like elephants or Call of the Wild. They also get archer benefits for patrolling. I think upping their damage would be illogical. Like many aspects of the game, their lack of use is not from lack of usefulness but more from lack of experimentation. IMHO


As for the decoys and friendly fire comments, I think if you use the page-down key and up-arrow key in a battle replay you will see that they are fairly realistic. If you stick a big statue up front, I will shoot it. If you put me behind your infantry, I will shoot them (setting to the side, or in front with a fire-retreat tactic, or having the target rear units avoids alot of friendly fire)

Gandalf Parker

[Huzurdaddi]

Gandalf Parker said:
I figured everyone would be down on slingers but I find them useful. Not so much as deadly archers, but I think they serve a purpose and it is in line with their logic. I find that I can cheaply create a cloud of small rocks flying at an army. This is sufficient to rout many of the cheaper bulk units (yeah I know, you disdain using them also) and things like elephants or Call of the Wild. They also get archer benefits for patrolling. I think upping their damage would be illogical. Like many aspects of the game, their lack of use is not from lack of usefulness but more from lack of experimentation. IMHO

Are you really trying to say that there is any circumstance in where a person who understands how the game works would rather make 7 gold 3 resource militia instead of 10 gold 8 resource crossbowmen?

I think not.

When someone who understands the game has the misfortune of receiving militia they sent them to their slaughter as soon as reasonabily possible.

Your never ending platitude that "every unit has it's place" is tiresome. Some units are simply better than other on a cost basis given the costs and abilities in the game today.

[Gandalf Parker]

Being able to produce 3 slingers to one archer is something I do often. You dont find that 30 slings causes more route than 10 shortbows? Or that 30 slingers patrolling does more good than 10 archers?

Of course maps and settings can matter alot. I tend to play epic maps so I build many units in many places. On small maps, or high resources, slingers would probably be a waste.

[Sandman]

I voted 'I find them useful' for blowpipes, even though I don't actually use them. They are niche weapons, and don't really deserve to be given serious attention. They're fun to fight against, though, and add flavour the game.

[Boron]

First a question because i never tested that :
Do the slingers benefit from flaming arrows also ?

Gandalf Parker said:
Being able to produce 3 slingers to one archer is something I do often. You dont find that 30 slings causes more route than 10 shortbows? Or that 30 slingers patrolling does more good than 10 archers?

It is only 15 slingers vs. 10 archers resourcewise and goldwise it is 40 slingers vs. 35 archers if you take the 8 gold 3 resource archers which exist rather as indy archers or as machaka archers .

Problem is that the shortbow has 30 range while a sling has only 20 range . The shortbows get this way 1 freeshot and very often the slingers with only 7 morale rout then from this first salvo already .

Unless you do extremely resourceheavy troops like knights not resources but gold is normally the limiting factor .

So Huzurdaddi is just correct . A plain shortbowman is better then a slinger and longbowmen or x-bowmen are defenitely better then slingers .

Longbowmen are only 6 resources also , x-bows from marignon 8 resources , then there are indy x-bows for 7 resorces if you are lucky and finally if you are uberlucky the hoburg x-bowmen for only 7 gold and 7 resources .
They are imho the best recruitable missile unit in the game

[Molog]

Does everything have to be usefull?

[Gandalf Parker]

well Ive played games where resources were the deciding factor. It wasnt worth me saving gold to make bowmen somehwere else. I dont care as much about "best" as I do pros and cons.

If you nitpick the numbers to "best" then we will only have 6 units in the game. You might as well be playing chess.

[Boron]

Gandalf Parker said:
well Ive played games where resources were the deciding factor. It wasnt worth me saving gold to make bowmen somehwere else. I dont care as much about "best" as I do pros and cons.

In SP yeah but i have to admit that i am even there kinda a powergamer . In MP most other ppl are also .
But that's only personal taste . I made 3 quickfights in your nice minimap 35 machaka archers vs. 40 slingers and in one of the 3 fights , entertainingly the first one , the slingers won .
So thnx to the really good dice roll system though the slingers are a bit worse as shortbowmen they are not so useless that they are never worth being bought also .
Especially by arco cause they are their only missile troop . It is always a question of availibility too . 99% of the Man players will always buy longbowmen instead of slingers but some Arcoplayers will buy slingers until they find e.g. cheap indy x-bowmen or archers .

Gandalf Parker said:
If you nitpick the numbers to "best" then we will only have 6 units in the game. You might as well be playing chess.

Which 6 units that would be ? I would say that at least 50 units are very useful

[Saber Cherry]

Molog said:
Does everything have to be useful?

Yes! If something is never useful, it has no reason to exist, as it detracts from the game (like rotten sea-slug entrails at a salad bar). More importantly, if something was never historically useful, it would never have existed (or been remembered). Slings, shortbows, axes, and militia were not deployed for centuries because they were useless (that's a double-negative, meaning "they were deployed because they were useful") - so if a game makes them seem useless, something's wrong!

[Oversway]

More useful units leads to more variety, which I find enjoyable.