Conceptual Balance Series (Mod)

[Saber Cherry]

Graeme Dice said:

I still don't see why people are so concerned about vine ogres? They are slow to summon, take huge amounts of the most valuable gem type, and are slow strategically. Unlike skeletons, which have a similar power level on the battlefield, they aren't lifeless, so you can't even swamp a SC with them.

Most valuable gem type? I consider Death, Earth (esp. for hammers or alchemy), Fire (for alchemy), Astral (very useful and transmutable), Water (clams), and Slaves (summons, contracts, earth-blood stones) more useful. I mainly use Nature for winebags, summer swords, totem shields, vine ogres, lamia queens, the occasional swarm, and some Fairy Queens if the game gets that far. Of those, I'd rate winebags, ogres (rarely vinemen), and lamia queens the best. Am I missing something?

In any case, I'd almost always want 10 vine ogres (good strength, HP, attack, need-not-eat, 2 attacks, poison-immune, no upkeep, no magical leadership, no morale failure) rather than 5 nature gems.

You don't have to use them for swamping SCs, because you can use them to swamp many other things, considering they only need research-3 (and cons-4, for thistle mace). They are great as garrisons or bodyguards, needing no food, upkeep, or special leadership. They have better strategic mobility than undead (IMO), with 2 moves and forest survival. They cannot effectively be trampled. Best of all, cheap, common Druids can summon them (with thistle maces and ivy crowns, both of which Druids can make). Overall... they rock! And they're the only good low-level summon outside of Death and Blood.

[Graeme Dice]

Saber Cherry said:
Most valuable gem type? I consider Death, Earth (esp. for hammers or alchemy), Fire (for alchemy), Astral (very useful and transmutable), Water (clams), and Slaves (summons, contracts, earth-blood stones) more useful.

Basically it comes down to rings of regeneration, gift of health, and haunted forest. Gift of health and haunted forest can both be game-winners.

In any case, I'd almost always want 10 vine ogres (good strength, HP, attack, need-not-eat, 2 attacks, poison-immune, no upkeep, no magical leadership, no morale failure) rather than 5 nature gems.

Wouldn't you rather have 5-12 Lamia's for that cost?

You don't have to use them for swamping SCs, because you can use them to swamp many other things, considering they only need research-3 (and cons-4, for thistle mace).

Once you've built up enough of a force to take on your opponents, it will likely be past turn 20-30 and into the mid-game where you can expect to see battlefield spells, elemental royalty, and blood commanders.

And they're the only good low-level summon outside of Death and Blood.

True, but that hardly makes them overpowered.

[The_Tauren13]

Graeme Dice said:
Basically it comes down to rings of regeneration, gift of health, and haunted forest. Gift of health and haunted forest can both be game-winners.

Why are these so much better than tartarians, wish, and clams?

Graeme Dice said:
Wouldn't you rather have 5-12 Lamia's for that cost?

I would absolutely rather 10 vine ogres than 3 lamias, and it would take a level 12 mage to get 12 for that cost.

Graeme Dice said:
Once you've built up enough of a force to take on your opponents, it will likely be past turn 20-30 and into the mid-game where you can expect to see battlefield spells, elemental royalty, and blood commanders.

...and they make great tanks for your own mages. 106 HP for 1 gem is hard to beat. And by turn 20-30, you will have ivy kings making 4 for 1 gem (212 HP), which is impossible to match with any other summon.

[Graeme Dice]

The_Tauren13 said:
Why are these so much better than tartarians, wish, and clams?

Tartarians are useless without gift of health or the chalice to support their creation, and oddly enough, both of those cost nature gems. Wish is a fun toy, but it is rare to find a wish that is more effective than wishing for gems or blood slaves. Clams are powerful, yes, but overrated in aggressive games.

I would absolutely rather 10 vine ogres than 3 lamias, and it would take a level 12 mage to get 12 for that cost.

Then you are, quite frankly, ignorant of just how much better Lamia's are than vine ogres.

...and they make great tanks for your own mages. 106 HP for 1 gem is hard to beat.

Your mages are going to be killed by the same battlefield spells that are killing the vine ogres. Also, who really cares that they have 56 hitpoints? That's something like three-six hits by standard national troops.

And by turn 20-30, you will have ivy kings making 4 for 1 gem (212 HP), which is impossible to match with any other summon.

If you are summoning ivy kings, then it takes 15 turns for their gem cost to pay off compared to using two N2 mages both with ivy crowns. If you are willing to spend that long, that late in the game, then I'll be quite happy to use my own nature gems to put up the various nature globals. I take it that you've never seen the haunted forest chain reaction in action?

[The Panther]

Graeme Dice said:
If you are willing to spend that long, that late in the game, then I'll be quite happy to use my own nature gems to put up the various nature globals. I take it that you've never seen the haunted forest chain reaction in action?

And if you think you can hold ANY decent global (nature or otherwise) more than 1-3 turns in the face of any opponent with 200+ clams or the Nexus (both pearl income which you claim is worth less then nature), then you must have never gotten very deep into a competetive MP game.

Ivy King's are a powerful summons indeed. After the relatively short payback time due to getting the four ogres per turn, you have a bunch of level 3 (or 4 with the mace) nature mages ready to charm the leaders of your huge undead army and dissolve the troops.

Ivy King = 20 nature, no upkeep, 4 ogres per turn
Druid = 140 gold plus 4.67 upkeep, 15 (10 with hammers) nature gems for mace + crown, 2 ogres per turn.
This is a no-brainer from any angle. The only reason to use the Druids is because you don't have high enough research to make the Kings plus you must somehow summon your first Ivy King to start the process.

I am still wondering how you are getting your undead army to fly easier than your vine ogre army. The Ivy King + vine ogre army is better strategically in my mind because of Fairy Trod.

Finally, it seems to me that mechanical men (using inferior earth gems) are superior to both vine ogres and lamias in every possible way.

[Zen]

I'm going to have to disagree with your Vine Ogre/Ivy King point.

I almost exclusively use my gems for: Lamias (great after about 40+ groups). Lamia Queens (I often have 4D or 3S Queens) and Mandragoras (this is usually the hammer that drops in the mid/lategame) and in distant 4th, depending on the circumstance/map/pretender Faerie Queens, especially if you have someone not ready for some Pangaean WS and good for summoning SCkillers)

I can't say I've seriously used Vine Ogres or Ivy Kings (outside of Charming) for offensive force *before* I have what I want from the above 4.

Re: Haunted Forest.

You only need 2 turns of this to win wars/games. It's sickeningly powerful *especially* if you are poised to drop a strong nation with stealth/teleport teams and eat up everything this will turn the tide in your favor that is usually irreversible to the targeted nation.

Being able to leave every province in your dominion defended with a single 1N Caster and pouring everything else into attack is a significant advantage.

[The_Tauren13]

Zen said:
I'm going to have to disagree with your Vine Ogre/Ivy King point.

Well, I guess Ill bow to the Wisdom of Zen.

However, I have two questions for you:
Do you think that the 2W clams are overpowered?
and Are you going to nerf them in your artifact mod? (assuming you are making one...)

[Graeme Dice]

The Panther said:
And if you think you can hold ANY decent global (nature or otherwise) more than 1-3 turns in the face of any opponent with 200+ clams or the Nexus (both pearl income which you claim is worth less then nature), then you must have never gotten very deep into a competetive MP game.

If your opponent has 200+ clams, then you are well past turn 70-100. Most crowded games have their first defeats around turn 15-20, and start to wrap up around turn 40, which is about the earliest that anybody can have 100 clams.

Ivy King = 20 nature, no upkeep, 4 ogres per turn
Druid = 140 gold plus 4.67 upkeep, 15 (10 with hammers) nature gems for mace + crown, 2 ogres per turn.

You really can't count on having many hammers to forge cheap items with a nature nation, so the payback time in terms of gems only is 15 turns. It is only after that point that the ivy king pays off.

I am still wondering how you are getting your undead army to fly easier than your vine ogre army.

Ermorian armies don't tend to need to fly as much because there tend to be no provinces inside the empire where they don't have at least a hundred troops.

Finally, it seems to me that mechanical men (using inferior earth gems) are superior to both vine ogres and lamias in every possible way.

Other than their fragility to physical attacks of course.

As for vine ogres being good meat shields, they are inferior to sea trolls for that role. A single ice devil or any other unit with breath of winter can kill very many sea trolls after a few turns.