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  #1  
Old August 29th, 2001, 04:36 PM

Askan Nightbringer Askan Nightbringer is offline
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Default Re: SEIV is being Pirated

"What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires -- desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way." -- Bertrand Russell, in "Roads to Freedom"


"It doesn't matter how many times you paint a fence, it is still a fence. Hitler had reasons for exterminating Jews, the CIA had reasons for attempting to rig Australian elections, a student has reasons to copy another's work and Trevor Chappel had a reason for bowling underam to New Zealand. Having an excuse doesn't make it any less wrong." -- Askan Nightbringer, in "Shrapnel Games Forum"
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  #2  
Old August 29th, 2001, 05:05 PM
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Default Re: SEIV is being Pirated

Please don't get me wrong. I am in no way pointing anybody out specifically and saying you are a criminal for downloading music from Napster, or software from Warez. I don't know if you have a legitimate reason why you should be able to download a copy.

The point is neither do Napster or Warez. They don't care if you are bought the software but your cd got broke. They don't care if you are planning on buying the album and want to hear the music first. They get there money from advertising whether or not you are legitamate.

They are the criminals becasue they are the one's stealing the product, offering it for free consumption, and getting revenues from advertising on the sites.

It's the same thing when TV stations are looking for shows to broadcast. They have to pay the distributor (Paramount, etc.) of the movie so they can show it. Then they charge McDonalds for advertising so Joe Blow can tune in at 8 and watch the movie. They don't charge Joe Blow. If they don't pay Paramount, and Joe Blow watches it anyway, maybe he isn't doing anything illegal, (or maybe he is, I don't know), but the TV station sure as heck is. There is no question about that.

There shouldn't be a question about Napster or Warez either.

Geoschmo

[This message has been edited by geoschmo (edited 29 August 2001).]
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Old August 29th, 2001, 05:12 PM

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Default Re: SEIV is being Pirated

Here is al that I know. I think getting and keep programs and not paying for is illegal. Downloading demos and keeping the demos are legal.

Same applies to music.

I never listened to techno or rock or anything until I went to MP3.com by accident and d/l a song. Now I take maybe a day or two each month to go song hunting on these services to figure out what CD I'm going to buy next from the mall.

However, I do not tolerate taking the music, burning a CD out of it, and not paying for the songs unless the songs are public domain.


However, I do know there was one song I got from napster and the author no longer sold the song, nor was it being distributed. So, for the hell of it, I sent a check as a donation to the author of the song. I got a nice, hand written thank you in return that I'm still trying to translate to english....

In that, I feel I did not steal the song as I did pay for it in my own way. Afterall, MP3's tax the memory of a computer more than a CD audio track in my CD player.

As for software, the only free software I take is that sent to me for a formal review from a developer/publisher. Which has happened twice. I consider them letting me keep the game thier payment for my services.

Often, I will run into a site that runs to a warez site. If I find that you can download the game (and it's not a site full of porn links), I will promptly report them to the makers of the game and report the email of the person to his ISP or to the FCC.

There is a very fine line between sampling and stealing on the internet that people are all too often too blinded to see.

Yes, I do sample foods at diners and such if they allow it or offer it. What can I say, I enjoy food.

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Old August 29th, 2001, 05:15 PM

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Default Re: SEIV is being Pirated

Just a little question for all of you...

Tell me, if you download a copy of original Beowulf off the net, is that stealing?

Also, if it is, who are you stealing from?
Let me know what you think.

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Old August 29th, 2001, 06:27 PM
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Default Re: SEIV is being Pirated

quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Just a little question for all of you...

Tell me, if you download a copy of original Beowulf off the net, is that stealing?

Also, if it is, who are you stealing from?
Let me know what you think.


If you mean the original Beowulf, the book that's hundreds of years old, no. Even if you knew who wrote it (I think it is listed as author unknown) any copyright protection it would have is long since expired. It would be considered public domain.

Of course if the author were still around, he could more than make up for any lost book sales by publishing his secrets for eternal life.

Geoschmo

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Old August 29th, 2001, 07:25 PM
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LazarusLong42 LazarusLong42 is offline
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Default Re: SEIV is being Pirated

quote:
Originally posted by Richard:
Because by downloading it he adds one more vote to why the warez site handler should stay in business and probably makes him some money via banners.


Heh. Indeed, you're absolutely right, and so is Geo. While the download is questionably ethical, the upload certainly is unethical... which invalidates any ethics on the download side. (I knew I was forgetting something ) Unfortunately, that doesn't make it less complex... and it doesn't shut down the warez sites. The question becomes, simply, how to shut them down?

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Old August 29th, 2001, 07:51 PM
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Default Re: SEIV is being Pirated

quote:
Originally posted by Hadrian Aventine:
Here is al that I know. I think getting and keep programs and not paying for is illegal. Downloading demos and keeping the demos are legal.

Same applies to music.

I never listened to techno or rock or anything until I went to MP3.com by accident and d/l a song. Now I take maybe a day or two each month to go song hunting on these services to figure out what CD I'm going to buy next from the mall.

However, I do not tolerate taking the music, burning a CD out of it, and not paying for the songs unless the songs are public domain.



I am always torn by this sort of debate. As an artist of a differnet sort (fiction) I have to fall on the strict legal side and say that downloading music from Napster is wrong (as a frex). But as a consumer, I feel that sampling the music with intent to possibly purchase is not wrong ethically, if illegal technically.

However, I have to say that ethically _and_ legally, it's wrong to _offer_ the files for distribution unless you are the original artist/writer/whatever.

I have a story coming out in September on a site called Speculon (www.speculon.com). They paid me for the right to publish the story on their site, and as such they can offer the story for distribution. I also know how they publish the stories, and pretty much anyone who knows how to hit ^C^V can copy the story and post it on their own site. This would be patently illegal, and definitely unethical.

But would it be unethical for someone on another site to offer the first several paragraphs of my story, up to the hook? Illegal, technically yes--more than a paragraph or so would be hard to justify under the Fair Use Act. But immoral and unethical? Did they post a link to the original publication and their link is generating more hits to my story? Well, then it's hard to say it's wrong.

And that's where the debate starts to boil down. No matter what point is made that downloading or uploading the material is unethical, there comes a point where the original artist is going to concede that, yeah, it's OK to upload a chunk as long as there's some way to find the original. And then someone who sees this done takes it a step further, and Posts more than should be, or the entire work, or without a link...

And then it goes out of control.

As an artist, there are a dozen ways to feel. Be puritanical about it--as Lars Ulrich, Harlan Ellison, and Paramount Pictures, among others, have done--and try to stop every instance of anything approaching piracy. This, unfortunately, breeds bad blood, as evidenced by the backlash against Paramount that came from Star Trek fansites, or the "Napster Bad" cartoon series published by Camp Chaos. (Harlan Ellison's already hated by enough people that I'm sure the backlash didn't affect him).

Or, be really laid-back about it, as many artists have done--some to the point of simply putting all their material right onto the net. This sounds all warm and fuzzy, but I think all of those artists admit that it cuts into profits a bit.

Software companies, like Shrapnel, have the same choices. Trust their customers, like Shrapnel has, which makes it harder to stop pirates--or place every protection under the sun on the CD. In the latter case though, let's face it, eventually the protection will be cracked. And then the executables show up on warez sites all the same. Open source? Sure, and watch _all_ your profits disappear.

Perhaps the fact that we're still debating hte whole thing is a good sign. There's a whole lot of grey area. Those who uphold strict morals still can; those who are heavily soiled with black can continue screwing over "the man" while under continual threat of being sued or jailed.

And in the meantime, we can hope that artists, companies, and consumers are out there somewhere determining where the happy medium lies.

And I'll continue to be torn, but try my best to be ethical, until the medium is found.

(Whew, that was long. And probably rambling, but I'm not going back to recheck it And hey, I'm a corporal now! Woo!)

LL
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