obat36 East Germany

[PlasmaKrab]

Mobhack said:
Plasma - any changes to formations in service dates etc to existing formations? (new formations do not mater as the pick will not use it).

I'll monitor this thread - but the edits may well become the "official" fix, and go in the master for any future updates.

Cheers
Andy

Wow, what an honour . I hope all I said has been relevant.

Yep, as I said I added 1*Strela team in the SPW Co, from 1976 onwards (Strela team availability).
Following what I have stopped the original SPW Co (slot 1OO3) at 12/1975.

But since the difference is minimal and it comes down to SAM availability, I think both formations could coexist until the end.

Otherwise I mainly added things, and tweaked only slightly the begin dates of some units. A big part of the end dates are fixed anyway

AAMOF I have quite few info on formations, but I may have a further look in time coming, if that counts for an official upgrade.

Best regards Andy,

Plasma

[Shan]

Did you remove the T-62s as well? East Germany never had them in their inventory. I got a very detailed book about the NVA - they also had only some 24 or so BMP-2s, for example - I don't know if they exist in the SPMBT OOB...

[Mobhack]

Shan said:
Did you remove the T-62s as well? East Germany never had them in their inventory. I got a very detailed book about the NVA - they also had only some 24 or so BMP-2s, for example - I don't know if they exist in the SPMBT OOB...

Any actual cites for the unavailability of the T-62 in the East German army?. A bald statement unless backed up by some facts cannot be relied upon, I am afraid.

Ditto for the BMP-2. However 24 BMP-2 is enough to allow its remaining in the OOB, but the radio code might then need changing to X3 to stop any AI buy.

As to "I don't know if they exist in the SPMBT OOB... ", simply opening up Mobhack and searching on BMP will find it in oh, about 10 seconds


cheers
Andy

[Shan]

Mobhack said:
Any actual cites for the unavailability of the T-62 in the East German army?. A bald statement unless backed up by some facts cannot be relied upon, I am afraid.

Ditto for the BMP-2. However 24 BMP-2 is enough to allow its remaining in the OOB, but the radio code might then need changing to X3 to stop any AI buy.

As to "I don't know if they exist in the SPMBT OOB... ", simply opening up Mobhack and searching on BMP will find it in oh, about 10 seconds


cheers
Andy

Here you go--- I was not at home when I posted yesterday so I didnt't have the source or the game ready to check,,, you may forgive me... but I do have a source, and a very good one in my opinion, see below. And, by the way: You are asking me for my source on the non-availability of T-62s and the limited number of BMP-2s... fair enough--- but then, as a conclusion from your statement above, I would call it a bit naive to include T-62s in the OOB of just about any Soviet client state per se, with a motto like 'Let them have T-62s unless someone can prove me wrong',,, as they were 'standard-issue' - without any source? In fact, as you undoubtedly know, the T-62 was in much less wide-spread use when compared to the T-55, and many armies upgraded their T-54s and T-55s until the T-72 arrived, without ever receiving T-62s.

Alright, here's my source:

Kopenhagen, Wilfried: Die Landstreitkräfte der NVA, Motorbuch Verlag, Stuttgart; 2. Auflage, 1999; ISBN 3-613-01943-4

This book was written as the third part of a series on the armed forces of the German Democratic Republic, all of them being very detailed and highly recommended (in German, of course). The author himself served in the NVA as an officer and later he became a journalist for a military journal.

Some information as required: (my translation ;-)) "Altogether, only 24 BMP-2 were in the inventory, all of them with the 9th Armored Division. Initially, the Soviets had difficulties with meeting the delivery schedule, due to the high demand for Afghanistan, while from 1987 on, the NVA was not interested in any further BMP-2s. It was intended to transition to the BMP-3 directly, which had become available in the meantime." (page 135, together with a 2-page colour photo of NVA Grenadiers dismounting from a BMP-2).

Some sample data from the total inventory:

As of summer 1990 , the NVA had 549x T-72, some 1969x T-55 (various versions, the latest being 319x upgraded T-55AM2B), 24x BMP-2 (since 1985), 926xBMP-1SP2, 187xBMP-1P, 12xBRM-1K, 545xMT-LB, 54xPT-76, 123xZSU-23/4, 958xSPW-70 (=BTR-70), et cetera, et cetera...

The book also offers phased in-service dates and origins of almost any system in the East German army, including all kinds of vehicles and weapons, and even the most rare engineer equipment or self-made modifications of older systems.

While I am willing to make some contributions to this great game, I do, however, not have the time to spend ages on producing a correct OOB for East Germany - and, I admit, I am not so concerned with such details anyway - if I play East Germany I just won't use them T-62s

cheers,
Shan

[Mobhack]

thanks - these modes should be in the next release.

Cheers
Andy

[DRG]

Shan said:
Here you go--- I was not at home when I posted yesterday so I didnt't have the source or the game ready to check,,, you may forgive me... but I do have a source, and a very good one in my opinion, see below. And, by the way: You are asking me for my source on the non-availability of T-62s and the limited number of BMP-2s... fair enough--- but then, as a conclusion from your statement above, I would call it a bit naive to include T-62s in the OOB of just about any Soviet client state per se, with a motto like 'Let them have T-62s unless someone can prove me wrong',,, as they were 'standard-issue' - without any source?

If you want to quote what we say...fair enough but DO try to refrain from making up quotes based on assumptions...OK?

NOWHERE did we say "Let them have T-62s unless someone can prove me wrong" and that CERTAINLY isn't any kind of "motto" we have. What you were ASKED was to provide us with a source to back up what you claimed so we have a solid reason to removed them from the OOB. Fair enough, you did and the changes have been made to the OOB. WHY they were added in the first place IDK because neither Andy or I wrote the OOB's and we don't ask the OOB writers to waste precious time to provide source info to justify every single entry in a OOB. We assume if it's been entered there must be a reason even if it's just an assumption based on thin information and sometimes the information is difficult to find. If someone comes along YEARS after the OOB was originally released and is the ONLY person in all that time to have ever claimed that the East Germans never used T-62's then I think you'll understand WHY we say "prove it"

Don

[Sewter]

In regards to the tanks of East Germany:

"East Germany
Ground Forces

The ground forces in 1987 made up 68 percent of the NVA, having a total strength of 120,000, of whom 60 percent were draftees. Ground forces included two tank divisions, four motorized rifle regiments, two surface-to-surface missile brigades, two artillery regiments and one antiaircraft artillery regiment, eight air defense regiments, one airborne battalion, two antitank battalions, and several support units.

Because East Germany produced primarily military supplies--such as computers, clothing, military vehicles, and communications equipment--rather than arms, major items of weaponry and equipment were obtained from the Soviet Union. Of the equipment used by the ground forces, only some wheeled vehicles were of East German design and manufacture. Some small arms and ammunition were also of local manufacture but were licensed copies of Soviet designs. The NVA had purchased 170 RM-70 122mm multiple rocket launchers and a number of FUG-70 scout cars from Czechoslovakia, but most of its weapons and equipment were of Soviet design and manufacture. In 1985 the tank inventory included an estimated 1,500 T-54s, T-55s, and T-72s assigned to units and approximately 1,600 more armored vehicles, including T-34s, in storage. Reconnaissance units were equipped with 1,000 BRDM-1 and BRDM-2 scout cars. Motorized infantry units had 1,000 BMP infantry combat vehicles, as well as 1,500 BTR-50Ps, BTR-60Ps, and BTR-152s and 200 BTR-70s (armored personnel carriers) and MT-LBs (multipurpose towing and transport vehicles). The artillery inventory included the following guns: 400 D-44s and self-propelled SD-44s (85mm); M-1931s and M-1937s (122mm); and 72 M-46s (130mm). There were also 108 M-1937 gun howitzers and 54 self-propelled M-197 and D-20 (152mm) gun howitzers, as well as various other kinds of howitzers: D-30s, M-1938s (M-30s), and self-propelled M-1974s (122 mm). Other artillery assets were 250 mortars (120mm); 24 FROG-7 and 18 SCUD-B tactical missile launchers; and multiple rocket launchers, which included 108 BM-21s, Czechoslovak RM-70s (122mm), and BM-24s (240mm) (see fig. 14).

The NVA's antitank inventory consisted of 120 T-12 guns (100mm) and various quantities of AT-3 SAGGER (including self-propelled BRDM-2s) and AT-4 SPIGOT antitank guided weapons. In terms of air defense assets, the East German ground forces had ninety-six self-propelled ZSU-23-4 guns, as well as SA-4, SA-6, and SA-9 antiaircraft missiles."

Data as of July 1987
(Library of Congress Country Studies)

But, in considering the potential battles with East Germany, we must remember that the Soviet Army (GSFG)had over 5000 of their own tanks, the majority being the T-72, but also included the T-62, T-64A (Mid-1970s) and the T-64B (Early-1980s). This is interesting, and should be considered while in a campaign with East Germany, as there would be near certainty of Soviet armor. Below is quoted from the same source as above:

"The Group of Soviet Forces in Germany

The westernmost and most formidable concentration of Soviet armed might outside the borders of the Soviet Union is the GSFG. In 1987 this force of about 380,000 men, organized into 20 ground force divisions and one air army and stationed entirely in East Germany, was over twice the size of the NVA.

...The First Guards Tank Army, headquartered at Dresden, included four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division; the Second Guards Army, at Fürstenberg, had one tank and two motorized rifle divisions; the Eighth Guards Army, at Weimar-Nohra, had one tank and three motorized rifle divisions; the Twentieth Guards Army, at Eberswalde, had three motorized rifle divisions; and the Third Shock Army, at Magdeburg, had four tank divisions and one motorized rifle division. In addition to the necessary artillery units at army and division levels, artillery support was provided by an independent division of rocket troops and artillery--the Thirty-fourth Artillery Division--stationed at Potsdam-Elstal and directly subordinate to the GSFG. A Spetsnaz (see Glossary) company was assigned to each army, and an independent Spetsnaz brigade was stationed in Neuruppin. Air support was provided by the Twenty-fourth Air Army, with headquarters at Wünsdorf. It is considered the best-equipped part of the Soviet air forces. In 1987 about 80 percent of the 1,000 to 2,000 aircraft were potential carriers of nuclear weapons."

This is why the A-10 was developed, in regards to actual armor numbers .

[Shan]

Alright guys, I am sorry for some of the wording in my last post, I have to admit I was a bit angry - so, next time, I'll post only when I have the source at hand, so we'll avoid that someone might think this is a statement without any back-up. As for the last post here by Sewter - it confirms what I found i my book. If u need any more details on the NVA (Nationale Volksarmee), then I'll look it up for u!