obat44 - West Germany

[Arralen]

Helge, would be great if you read my postings a little bit more accuratly:

1) Carl Gustav wasn't used in antitank role as early as '88. In '88/'89 we had 3 per PzGren Kompanie, but NO(!) ammo at all. We were told the new PzFst would come soon, and that it wasn't clear if and what for the old Carl Gustavs would be used in the future.
It is still used for battlefield illumination - and only in that role. But we don't have battlefield illumination in SPMBT.

2) Delivery of PzFst3 to the troops started in '92. Considering that it was in development since '72 IIRC, it is not that amazing that for basic training the old lPzfst 44mm Lanze was still used in '94, especially as the systems are not that different.


And if you don't trust one source on the web, here some more remark from those which "have been there, done it" ... :
"Dass die schw PzFst durch die PzFst3 abgelöst wurde wie auf vielen Seiten beschrieben, stimmt meines Wissens so nicht. Die PzFst3 wurde 1992 in die Bw eingeführt, und zu diesem Zeitpunkt wurde mit der schw PzFst schon nur noch Gefechtsfeldbeleuchtung geschossen. Mit Einführung der PzFst3 wurden dann die leichten Panzerfäuste 44mm im Tausch zurückgeliefert."
http://www.fussle.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5998

"That the SchwPzFst was replaced by the PzFst3, as described in multiple sources, is as far as I know not correct. The PzFst3 was introduced in 1992, and at that point the SchwPzFst was already only for battlefield illumination. With the issuing of the PzFst3 the lPzFst 44mm where returned in exchange."

"Zur schw Leuchtbüchse selbst nach was: Richtig ist, das die Leuchtbüchse nicht der direkte Vörgänger der PzFst 3 ist. Das war, wie ebenfalls richtig erwähnt, die lPzFst "Lanze". Die Leuchtbüchse ist normalerweise in der selben Anzahl wie das PARS Milan vorhanden. Denn dafür wurde die Büchse im Dienst gehalten. Wenn man sich mal die Schußweite, in der die Leuchtbüchse genutzt wird anschaut, wird klar, das sich die mit knapp 2000m ziemlich genau mit der der Milan deckt. Denn am Anfang der nutzung der Milan gab noch kein MIRA für die Milan. Das heißt das PARS war nicht nachtkampffähig. Und damit man die Milan auch bei Nacht einsetzen kann, man die Leuchtbüchse vorgesehen. "

Ok, I'm too lazy to translate this entirely. Basically it says, that there always were the same numbers of "Schwere Leuchtbüchse" and Milan ATGMs, which didn't have night vision equipment in the first version. the range of the "Schwere Leuchtbüchse" was essentially the same (2000m) as the range of the Milan, to make it possbile to use the Milan for night fighting.
[Our Milans had MIRA imaging equipment..., so we didn't need the Carl Gustavs for battlefield illu]

All in all, I must say it's astonishing difficult to get any hard facts about Bundeswehr equipment at all. Not because it's top-secret (it's still a conscript army), but because everything is so obscure and mixed-up and unsure (because it's a conscript army ?!).

However, I'll try to get official data about Panzerfaust, Milan I and II, the Marder and other items. May take some time, though....

[TheDesertFox]

Arralen said:
Helge, would be great if you read my postings a little bit more accuratly:

Hehe, you did write this bit. no ?

Arralen said:In game term this would mean starting the Pzfaust 3 in 9/92 and ending Pzfaust 44mm in 12/92 and maybe the Carl Gustav in 12/87

Look we need some consensus which works reasonably close to reality in game terms. That´s why I asked for overlap dates. All we need to know is:

PzFst44 intro date: [fill in sensible date here]
PzFst44 extro date: not earlier than 09/1994

PzFst3 intro date: not earlier than 09/1992
PzFst3 extro date: [fill in sensible date here]

Carl-G. intro date: [fill in sensible date here]
Carl-G. extro date: not earlier than 09/1990 as AT-weapon [1]

That´s it. Nothing more, nothing less. And please keep in mind that the fact that a given PzGrenBtl. didn´t use a kind of equipment after a given date anymore does NOT! necessarily mean the whole Bundeswehr did not use this kind of equipment anymore.

Good info you came up with so far. I will be pleased to read more on the issue. Keep it up!

cheers

Helge

[1] Being trained to fire this beast in AT-role at Panzertruppenschule does mean something about its use in the Bundeswehr, don´t you think ?

[Suurajatollah]

Hi all,

I have found a very good page that informs a lot when it comes to modern armarment of the german army.

http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE

Though it is written in germany...

Anyways, I think I have found few flaws in WG OOB:

*The page informs that Carl Gustav is still in use
*Where is this new Puma IFV
- http://www.army-technology.com/projects/puma_tracked/
*PzH 2000s rate of fire is 4, it should be more than Paladins.
("...Paladin M109A6 achieves a maximum firing rate of up to 8 rounds per minute or 3 rounds per 15 seconds, and a sustained firing rate of 1 round per three minutes...") and ("...This provides rates of fire of 3 rounds in less than 10 seconds...The firing rate of the PzH 2000 was 12 rounds in 59.74 seconds, and 20 rounds in 1 minute 47 seconds...")

Sources:1.) http://www.army-technology.com/projects/pzh2000/
2.) http://www.army-technology.com/projects/paladin/

*Mtn Scouts have no Morale nor Experience mod +3 which is common add on to every scout units
*Ranger units in many (if not every) OOB's have +5 or greater Morale mod and Experience mod. WG do not have.
*Some modern units are missing as the page informs

Should these things be corrected in a future update?

Cheers,
Olli

[Arralen]

Suurajatollah said:
Hi all,
I have found a very good page that informs a lot when it comes to modern armarment of the german army.
http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE
Though it is written in german...

Obviously, it's the official army homepage .. should be written in german, shouldn't it? Sadly, it does not give any information about dates, which is so thoroughly needed.

But there's an english version as well - simply hit the button for the "english version" on the front page. Haven't checked the info provided, though ..
http://www.deutschesheer.de

Anyways, I think I have found few flaws in WG OOB:
*The page informs that Carl Gustav is still in use

Actually, it is not in use as antitank weapon any more. It's says it's only used for illumination purposes.
Our problem here is - noone seems to now when it was officially phased out, and more important,at which point it was practically out of service because of ammo shortage, umwillingness to carry it along/ train with it and maybe even poor maintenance / missing spare parts
The OOB says 12/87 atm, and I tend to agree.

Where is this new Puma IFV

Good question. It is decided it will be build and bought, at last.
The information on that site is outdated, btw.:
Only "Schutzstufe A" and "Schutzstufe C" armor variants will be build (with 32/43 ton weight).
Here are some more pages about Puma:
http://www.freundeskreis-panzergrenadiere.de/87.0.html

So we would only need 2 different versions in the OOB -

• the airlift configuration, with low side armor, resistant to 14,5mm anti-equipment snipers and arty shrapnel; resistant to conventional 30mm AP and RPG-7 from the front and grazing hits on the flanks
• full armor config; 30mm and RPG-7 on 3 sides

Btw., applying those armor kits (9-10 tons!) is definitly not within the time frame of a WinSPMBT battle - in fact, they are still not sure how the grunts are supposed to handle the armor slabs at all

Furthermore, it should have high general survivability, as it is build to soak up mine hits and the enemies' first shot (which he is likely to have in urban environment and peacekeeping missions) and high armor values on the turret, as it is unmanned and sealed vs. the interior.

*Mtn Scouts have no Morale nor Experience mod +3 which is common add on to every scout units
*Ranger units in many (if not every) OOB's have +5 or greater Morale mod and Experience mod. WG do not have.

These are, as well as the various snipers, pretty generic units which do no exists in that form. I'm not sure how to "tie" them to real units, and therefore, which qualitiy to asign to them.
In general, I would leave them as they are and rate the "normal" troops waayyy lower .. a good deal of those conscripts are "Kampftrinker" (does anyone know to translate that?) and the officers jerks, but nothing more.

*Some modern units are missing as the page informs

which ?

[PlasmaKrab]

*PzH 2000s rate of fire is 4, it should be more than Paladins.
("...Paladin M109A6 achieves a maximum firing rate of up to 8 rounds per minute or 3 rounds per 15 seconds, and a sustained firing rate of 1 round per three minutes...") and ("...This provides rates of fire of 3 rounds in less than 10 seconds...The firing rate of the PzH 2000 was 12 rounds in 59.74 seconds, and 20 rounds in 1 minute 47 seconds...")

Quite off-topic, but he's right.
SP howitzers tend to be strangely rated. PzH 2000 is meant to be fully automated, Crusader-like, so should have better ROF and maybe FC (don't know if FC applies to indirect fire artillery?), maybe also better gun accuracy.
Same with the French AUF-1 GCT. Starts growing old, but it was nevertheless one of the first 155mm SPA with semi-auto loading and 5 rounds ready to fire (kind of autoloader). That should give both of these a huge ROF, and according cost. Gentlemen, in the Iraqi oob, the AUF-1 is even cheaper than the 2S1, which is good quality, but 122mm and 10 years older!

[Mobhack]

FC is worthless for off-map units (it is for direct fire)
RF is ditto worthless for off-map units
ROF is worthwhile for both <g>!

Gun ACC value is not worthwhile other than for direct-fire point-target on table missions, either.

gun ranges >= 200 are really only relevant for counter-battery fire between off-map units. They can fire all over the map if on-table assets. Are irrelevant really to on-map arty.

Burst fires - are not really done by this game system. (If so, then the S-tank and the French FL-series autoloaded turrets would have good initial bursts, but the latter at least required bombing up from a hull store, out of fire - and so no real way to simulate with the current mechanisms - and especially try telling the AI how to reload an AMX-13 ?!?

The Swedish bandkanone, as I recall has a 14 or so ROF - and so should empty its 155mm magazine in 1-2 turns..



Cheers
Andy

[narwan]

One error spotted:
Grenadier units 216, 217 and 218 have 6 HEAT ammo (at PEN 0) for their G3 rifles.

An OOB question:
Why are german regular rangers (unit 423) 19 points per squad (8/89) and the heavy rangers (unit 429) only 15? The only difference I can spot is that the heavy's have a grenade launcher (with 36 rounds) where the regulars have hand grenades (18 only). If anything I'd expect the heavy's to be more expensive. Hand grenades do have double the HE factor but the grenade launcher has double the ammo, a range of 7 and limited AT capability (HEAT 5).

Some questions for general information:
What does the 'MTW' stand for? How are these companies part of larger formations (battalions, brigades, etc)? I suspect they are a heavy inf AT cie for 'Grenadier' battallions or brigades. Can anyone shed some light on that for me? Thanks,

Narwan

[Suurajatollah]

Thanks for clearing things!

Heh! I tried that English page but it didn't work properly. I don't know much German so I tried to figure those missing units from the German pages. Which was difficult!

http://www.deutschesheer.de/relaunch...829LC297PTILDE

These are, as well as the various snipers, pretty generic units which do no exists in that form. I'm not sure how to "tie" them to real units, and therefore, which quality to asign to them.
In general, I would leave them as they are and rate the "normal" troops waayyy lower .. a good deal of those conscripts are "Kampftrinker" (does anyone know to translate that?) and the officers jerks, but nothing more.

I have served in Finnish defense forces for six months and I must say that if Finlands base experience is 75 so should be Germanys too! Still I disagree with you that those experience and morale mods should be untouched. In general scouts have those 3 and so should mountains scouts have. And in general rangers have 5 - 15 and so should WGs mountain troops have. WG is the only country I've found that doesn't have it. Although haven't espesially looked for it.

Back to those missing units. I feel that following units are missing:

* Leichter Transporthubschrauber UH-1D
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CH9Q307SWINDE
* Mehrzweckhubschrauber NH90
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CGMJ417SWINDE
* There are 4 different trucks: 5t, 7t,10t and 15t
*Motorcycle scouts??
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...8CH26459SWINDE
*Mungo??
http://www.deutschesheer.de/C1256B6C...VNFEY332RHAHDE

I searched all these in that page I mentioned... with my poor German.

BTW are those Para ATVs really expired after year 2005?

[PlasmaKrab]

A few points I came across through the German OOB:

Fennek first:

Isn't 1998 quite early for a service date?
From the official BW site, I'd tend to say 2001 at first.

Furthermore, it seems that a FO version (VB) is planned for the near future. Sensor suite stays the same, armament is changed to a MG3 AAMG.

I am searching for an official source about this, but to no avail yet. Here are some pics:
http://www.primeportal.net/apc/fennek.htm
And I got a source from the German publication "Soldat und Technik", April 2003: "Die modernste Artillerie der Welt und ihre Defizite", stating that as of 2002, 38 Fennek VB were due to be fielded by January 2004.

And what about the designation?
I heard something about "SpPz-2" (Spähpanzer, armored scout vehicle), but the official seems to be still "Spähwagen leicht 4 Rad FENNEK", which is quite hard to sum up.


Other matter is the Wiesel:

AFAIK the MK in "Wiesel MK" stands for "MaschinenKanone", that is, Autocannon.
In that perspective the current "Wiesel 1 MK TOW" in the game sounds strange?
I am pretty sure about this, but surely there are German veterans around here with better info on this.

Cheers all,

Plasma

[Alpha]

Well there are much probs in the german OOB.

i corrected a few ones:

a) Mountain troops now have better exp + mor than normal grunts. they are now a little weaker than para but better than normal
b) Border guards ( which is meant "bundesgrenzschutz" i think ) should have also a bit better exp + mor then normal troops since these were no conscripts. Also they were in service minimun untill the fall of the wall.
c) PZH 2000 has now 1 more ROF ( also the question was asked above, if it should be also a bit more accurate and therefore a bit more expansive ? )
d) SP arty prices a bit changed ( 109 A3 was a bit too pricey for example )
e) Dornier 205 heli is now correct named "Bell UH 1D"
f) The ammo load f. SP mortars is correctd ( for example the hotchkiss SPmortar should have fewer ammo than the M113 )
g) The Luchs is now 1 size smaller and much faster than in the orig. OOB. there it was only 23 fast, much too low !

Shall i upload this OOB here ? I mean it is the minimun that everyone should have.

But there are more things that need to be looked at:

a) Missing troops: KSK commandos
b) Missing troops: Heimatschutztruppe
c) Missing vehicle: Scorpion minelayer
e) Missing weapon: Bunkerfaust
f) Missing weapon: Fliegerfaust 2
g) Wrong weapon: Armbrust for engineers (??) INFO ??
h) Is the 120mm mortar Wiesel already at the troops ?? I know it is planned.

Also i wonder why have the L44 120mm only 11 accuracy while the russian 125mm has 13 ? Thought german weapon is better than russian ?

Also i think some of the russian stuff should be a tad cheaper...

Thanx. Please discuss ! Also feel free to add above missing troops esp. the KSK !

@ plasma: Think ur right with your points also !