Friendly Fire from aircraft

[Chaim_Krause]

BigJim said:

No, you didn't get my point. I am not saying the existence or use of IFF needs research. I am saying your claim that air-to-ground blue-on-blue is rare needs research. You make a statement and don't back it up with data. FYI, I work at CGSC and it is my job to make sure simulations are an accurate representation of the battlefield as I assist the college's faculty to instruct our Army's Majors. I have seen many documented cases of blue-on-blue and have heard many second-hand stories from soldiers and Marines who have returned from Iraq and Afghanistan. It is a very big problem. If you are going to claim it is rare, what is your source? Where did you get your data? That is what needs research, not the existence or use of IFF systems.

As for my comment on speed, you said "Sure there will be some foul ups but in the main the system works (even at 700 knots ESPECIALLY at 700 knots)." My point is that speed is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is an airplane doing 700 knots or a helicopter sitting at a hover. Decision time is what is relevant. The longer a pilot has to process the facts, the more chance he has to recheck his assumptions and lower the chance of blue-on-blue.

P.S. Don't get me wrong. I am glad you are here. WinSPMBT is a great game and I am glad you like it. Maybe I can make some scenarios you'd like.

[BigJim]

I guess you missed my point, I cannot produce any data of blue on blue in the situation I depicted cause it doesn't happen. Perhaps you can provide some cases of blue on blue in a "friendly" zone of control, where a pilot fired on his own assets while over flying them on the way to his assigned area of mission?????

ps I would love to try some senario's by you and I am not offended by those who disagree with me

Chaim_Krause said:

No, you didn't get my point. I am not saying the existence or use of IFF needs research. I am saying your claim that air-to-ground blue-on-blue is rare needs research. You make a statement and don't back it up with data. FYI, I work at CGSC and it is my job to make sure simulations are an accurate representation of the battlefield as I assist the college's faculty to instruct our Army's Majors. I have seen many documented cases of blue-on-blue and have heard many second-hand stories from soldiers and Marines who have returned from Iraq and Afghanistan. It is a very big problem. If you are going to claim it is rare, what is your source? Where did you get your data? That is what needs research, not the existence or use of IFF systems.

As for my comment on speed, you said "Sure there will be some foul ups but in the main the system works (even at 700 knots ESPECIALLY at 700 knots)." My point is that speed is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if it is an airplane doing 700 knots or a helicopter sitting at a hover. Decision time is what is relevant. The longer a pilot has to process the facts, the more chance he has to recheck his assumptions and lower the chance of blue-on-blue.

P.S. Don't get me wrong. I am glad you are here. WinSPMBT is a great game and I am glad you like it. Maybe I can make some scenarios you'd like.

[/quote]

[Pergite]

BigJim said:
I guess you missed my point, I cannot produce any data of blue on blue in the situation I depicted cause it doesn't happen. Perhaps you can provide some cases of blue on blue in a "friendly" zone of control, where a pilot fired on his own assets while over flying them on the way to his assigned area of mission?????

I allready did... and the pilot even asked for permission to engage and was denied. Afghanistan 2002. The Canadian soldiers were conducting a live-fire training exercise in a recognized training area. They where bombed with a LGB.
In a separate incident was when a pilot dropped a 500-pund bomb on some other canadiens during a training accident.

Then there was a B-52 bomber that dropped a 2,000-pound guided bomb on positions manned by ground troops who were directing air strikes against nearby Taliban targets. Or when a BBC team acompanying SF tropps in northern Iraq was attacked.

Put all this in a hostile combat enviroment and you will have to multiply the accidents bigtime.

I however dont know what you in this case argue as a friendly zone of control.
And once again, NO, there are no standardized groundbased automatic IFF system in use...yet.