obat44 - West Germany

[PlasmaKrab]

*PzH 2000s rate of fire is 4, it should be more than Paladins.
("...Paladin M109A6 achieves a maximum firing rate of up to 8 rounds per minute or 3 rounds per 15 seconds, and a sustained firing rate of 1 round per three minutes...") and ("...This provides rates of fire of 3 rounds in less than 10 seconds...The firing rate of the PzH 2000 was 12 rounds in 59.74 seconds, and 20 rounds in 1 minute 47 seconds...")

Quite off-topic, but he's right.
SP howitzers tend to be strangely rated. PzH 2000 is meant to be fully automated, Crusader-like, so should have better ROF and maybe FC (don't know if FC applies to indirect fire artillery?), maybe also better gun accuracy.
Same with the French AUF-1 GCT. Starts growing old, but it was nevertheless one of the first 155mm SPA with semi-auto loading and 5 rounds ready to fire (kind of autoloader). That should give both of these a huge ROF, and according cost. Gentlemen, in the Iraqi oob, the AUF-1 is even cheaper than the 2S1, which is good quality, but 122mm and 10 years older!

[Mobhack]

FC is worthless for off-map units (it is for direct fire)
RF is ditto worthless for off-map units
ROF is worthwhile for both <g>!

Gun ACC value is not worthwhile other than for direct-fire point-target on table missions, either.

gun ranges >= 200 are really only relevant for counter-battery fire between off-map units. They can fire all over the map if on-table assets. Are irrelevant really to on-map arty.

Burst fires - are not really done by this game system. (If so, then the S-tank and the French FL-series autoloaded turrets would have good initial bursts, but the latter at least required bombing up from a hull store, out of fire - and so no real way to simulate with the current mechanisms - and especially try telling the AI how to reload an AMX-13 ?!?

The Swedish bandkanone, as I recall has a 14 or so ROF - and so should empty its 155mm magazine in 1-2 turns..



Cheers
Andy

[narwan]

One error spotted:
Grenadier units 216, 217 and 218 have 6 HEAT ammo (at PEN 0) for their G3 rifles.

An OOB question:
Why are german regular rangers (unit 423) 19 points per squad (8/89) and the heavy rangers (unit 429) only 15? The only difference I can spot is that the heavy's have a grenade launcher (with 36 rounds) where the regulars have hand grenades (18 only). If anything I'd expect the heavy's to be more expensive. Hand grenades do have double the HE factor but the grenade launcher has double the ammo, a range of 7 and limited AT capability (HEAT 5).

Some questions for general information:
What does the 'MTW' stand for? How are these companies part of larger formations (battalions, brigades, etc)? I suspect they are a heavy inf AT cie for 'Grenadier' battallions or brigades. Can anyone shed some light on that for me? Thanks,

Narwan

[Alpha]

narwan said:

Some questions for general information:
What does the 'MTW' stand for? How are these companies part of larger formations (battalions, brigades, etc)? I suspect they are a heavy inf AT cie for 'Grenadier' battallions or brigades. Can anyone shed some light on that for me? Thanks,

Narwan

narwan, i didn´t do much changes to existing inf + armor formations....so i probably overlooked the errors you mentioned. but i don´t think they are so severe.

MTW = Mannschafts Transportwagen usually this are M113 in the german army or Fuchs, but Fuchs have own formations in the game...

[TheDesertFox]

narwan said:
Some questions for general information:
What does the 'MTW' stand for? How are these companies part of larger formations (battalions, brigades, etc)? I suspect they are a heavy inf AT cie for 'Grenadier' battallions or brigades. Can anyone shed some light on that for me? Thanks,

MTW = Mannschaftstransportwagen M113

In the 80s-90s (Heeresstruktur 4) every PzGrenBtl was structured roughly the following way:

-1st Coy "Staff and Logistics"

-2-3rd Coy "SPz Marder" capable of mounted and dismounted combat

-4rd Coy "MTW M113" capable of dismounted combat only

-5th Coy "PzMrs Coy" Mortar on M113, fire support coy

cheers

[narwan]

Alpha, thanks for the info. I haven't checked out your alternative obat (yet). It's one of many things on my mental 'to do' list!

DesertFox, I typed this reply to Alpha before I properly read yours, thanks!

I did find out though how the MTW cie fits into the scheme of things. I remembered a tabletop wargame magazine my brother has with a NATO v WP game in it and lots of (very good) back ground articles. One of those goes into great detail on the german armed forces organisation.

The MTW cie is part of a regular panzergrenadier brigade. In wartime the brigade goes into a 4 manouvre battallion organisation: 1 with 3 tank cie's, 1 mixed with 2 mech cie's (IFV's) and 1 tank cie, 2 with 2 mech cie's (IFV's) and 1 mech cie (APC).
The MTW cie is the mech cie with APC's (M113's whereas the other ones have Marder IFV's). It's probably heavy on the ATGM's because it's parent battallion is lacking MBT's (and hence it's medium-long range antitank capability).

Another interesting tidbit was the fact that upon mobilization 2 'light' infantry battallions are attached to each division HQ. From the stats and description I gather those must be the 'Jaeger' formations in the game.

By far the best stuff though is the descriptions of the units of the german territorial army, which included 6 heavy (2 tank, 2 inf batt's) and 6 light brigades (1 tank, 2 inf batt's).
I'll go and check to see if these are in the game too. I can't remember spotting any 'Heimatschutzen' companies though.

Narwan

[narwan]

There are no specific 'Heimatschutzen (HS)' cie's in the game. It looks like the game does cover the tank cie's though since the M48 remains available when it was only in service with the HS brigades.

There are no motorised (truck) infantry cie's though and no mech cie's with M113's only that fit. The ones that are in the game are the MTW cie and the Pnzgrndr AT cie's but these have far too many Milan's in them to be HS cie's.
The problem with the regular Pnzgrndr cie's is that they do field the M113 as an APC choice (implying HS since regular army cie's had the Marder) but the heavy APC choice only allows for Marders. So you always end up with Marders in the cie.
Each HS infantry battallion (truck and APC) is also supposed to have 7 90mm tracked TD's but there's no sign of these anywhere. They disappear after 85. Looks like the HS in the game might need some work...

I also wonder which cie's if any are meant to represent the 15 light infantry home defense regiments and 150 security companies and 300 security platoons tha make up the rest of the territorial army? The regiments in particular are supposed to be capable of conducting conventional battles in the rear area's.

Noticed another thing too, the info I dug up now is very accurate with regards to the cie's and other formations of the regular army except when it comes to SP-ATGM cie's. It's only available in 16 unit cie's in the game while panzerbrigades had a cie of 9 and panzergrenadierbrigades a cie of 12 according to my data (for the 80's), anyone of you know who's right here?

Narwan

[Alpha]

narwan,

Heimatschutz units are not in this OOB at all.

You can easily create them: take some older equipment ( M48 or leo1, jgdpz. kanone, hotchkiss etc. ) and add some "jaegers" distract some exp and mor, so you have HS units. they were like normal units only old equimpent and of course not as good as normal bundeswehr. they should be mobilized after 48 - 72h of an attack ( whcih was probably wishful thinking ). also note they have onyl light old panzerfausts....

( see my LW sicherungs troops they are quite simmilar but have more recent training anda bit better morale )....