.com.unity Forums
  The Official e-Store of Shrapnel Games

This Month's Specials

Air Assault Task Force- Save $8.00
Bronze- Save $10.00

   







Go Back   .com.unity Forums > The Camo Workshop > WinSPMBT
Notices


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old July 27th, 2005, 12:13 AM
troopie's Avatar

troopie troopie is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Die Operasionale Gebied
Posts: 375
Thanks: 107
Thanked 88 Times in 58 Posts
troopie is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

To model strategic nukes in the game. Hit the reset button at the moment of use. After rebooting, delete both the scenario, and the orbat of the side nuked. If both sides have large amounts of strategic nukes, delete the game.

troopie
__________________
Pamwe Chete
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old July 27th, 2005, 05:18 AM
Artur's Avatar

Artur Artur is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Budapest
Posts: 403
Thanks: 1
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Artur is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

Quote:
troopie said:
To model strategic nukes in the game. Hit the reset button at the moment of use. After rebooting, delete both the scenario, and the orbat of the side nuked. If both sides have large amounts of strategic nukes, delete the game.

troopie


Artur.
__________________
"Strategy without tactics is the slowest route to victory. Tactics without strategy is the noise before defeat.", Sun Tzu
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old July 27th, 2005, 05:58 AM

Busko Busko is offline
Private
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 23
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Busko is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

The issue has been discussed extensively (and quite often) on the old SPMBT mailing list.
The conclusion was always the same. The scale of SPMBT doesn't allow the modelling of a tactical nuke explosion, even if the operations advised by Troopie would be a solution.

Do that, with Carmina Burana "Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi" at max volume, the effect will be very coreographic
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old July 27th, 2005, 06:18 AM
FJ_MD's Avatar

FJ_MD FJ_MD is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 447
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
FJ_MD is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

To model nukes explosions will not be so interesting because all the map and all the units in it at the moment of the explosion will simply vanish.



Maybe modelling the environment after some days will be interesting (lot of new terrain graphics, lot of new OOBs,etc.) but this is not the purpose of the game,so such weapons will not be modelled.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old July 27th, 2005, 08:34 AM
MarkSheppard's Avatar

MarkSheppard MarkSheppard is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,414
Thanks: 103
Thanked 648 Times in 432 Posts
MarkSheppard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

Quote:
FJ_MD said:
To model nukes explosions will not be so interesting because all the map and all the units in it at the moment of the explosion will simply vanish.
.....I'm seriously at a loss for words here....



The W54 warhead used on the Davy Crockett weighed just 51 pounds and was the smallest and lightest fission bomb (implosion type) ever deployed by the United States, with a variable explosive yield of 0.01 kilotons (equivalent to 10 tons of TNT, or two to four times as powerful as the ammonium nitrate bomb which destroyed the Alfred P. Murrah federal building in Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995) or 0.02 kilotons-1 kiloton.

Basically during the 1950s, and early 1960s, the entire
US Military strategy for defending Europe against
Soviet Invasion was using a lot of tactical nukes, backed
up with a small army to hold the ground.

It's seriously feasible to consider small (up to 5
kiloton) nuclear weapons as workable with the SPCAMO
engine, particularly in the 1950s, early 1960s,
before McNamara took over and built a large conventional
US Army.

Link to Nuke Calculator

A 1 kt weapon would only vaporize everything utterly in a radius of 30-40 meters, and the various weapon effects
such as ionizing radiation, air blast, thermal pulse, would
extend out to 700-800 meters.

A 5 kt weapon would vaporize everything utterly in a radius of 60-80 meters, and the various weapon effects
such as ionizing radiation, air blast, thermal pulse, would
extend out to 1100-1300 meters.

Considering that you can play upon maps as big as 10 by 8 kilometers with WinMBT, tactical nukes on those maps would
be feasible as you would have manuever room to spread out
your multiple echelons to avoid them all being taken out
by a tactical nuke.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old July 27th, 2005, 09:27 AM
FJ_MD's Avatar

FJ_MD FJ_MD is offline
Second Lieutenant
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 447
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
FJ_MD is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

Why the US have not used them in Korea or Vietnam?


You can push it all the way in but for what I know tactical nukes will not be modelled in the game.
__________________


Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old July 27th, 2005, 09:48 AM
MarkSheppard's Avatar

MarkSheppard MarkSheppard is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,414
Thanks: 103
Thanked 648 Times in 432 Posts
MarkSheppard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

Quote:
Why the US have not used them in Korea or Vietnam?
Korea was before the Eisenhowerian doctrine of "I love nukes,
I want them everywhere", and Vietnam was run by Strange McNamara
who wanted a large conventional army.

And also, using nukes is a significant escalation for
what were side-shows in the Cold War. The US Decision making
process at the time saw Korea as a sideshow, and some
people even viewed Korea as having been started by the
Soviets as a diversion to draw US Forces away from Europe.

This resulted in a policy that no real frontline equipment
was sent to Korea; which is why you saw refurbished WW2
era B-29s doing bomb runs over Korea, instead of post-war
built B-50s. Similarily, the Midway CVBs were never deployed
off Korea; it was war-built Essexes and CVLs that did the
brunt of the Naval Air War over Korea.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old July 27th, 2005, 09:54 AM
Shadowcougar's Avatar

Shadowcougar Shadowcougar is offline
Corporal
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 137
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Shadowcougar is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

Because it was desigbed to "make a whole area kill or incapacitate advancing troop formations and irradiate the area so that it was uninhabitable for up to 48 hours, long enough to mobilize NATO forces." Not much fun to game out to me. The Special Atomic Demolition Munition isn't much fun either.


from website that photo came from with text.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davy_Cr...lear_device%29

One of the smallest nuclear weapons ever fielded, the Davy Crockett was developed in the late 1950s for use in a tactical confrontation with Soviet troops in West Germany. Small teams of the Atomic Battle Group (charged with operating the device) would be stationed every few kilometers to guard against Soviet attack, using the power of their nuclear artillery shells to kill or incapacitate advancing troop formations and irradiate the area so that it was uninhabitable for up to 48 hours, long enough to mobilize NATO forces.

The M-388 round used a heavy version of the W54 warhead, a very small sub-kiloton fission device. The W54 weighed about 51 lb (23 kg), with a selectable yield of 10 - 250 tons (very close to the minimum practical size and yield for a fission warhead). The complete round weighed 76 lb (34.5 kg). It was 31 in (78.7 cm) long with a diameter of 11 in (28 cm) at its widest point; a subcaliber piston at the back of the shell was actually inserted into the launcher's barrel for firing.

The Davy Crockett could be launched from either of two launchers: the 4-inch (102 mm) M28, with a range of about 1.25 mi (2 km), or the 6-in (155 mm) M29, with a range of 2.5 mi (4 km). Both weapons used the same projectile, and could be mounted on a tripod launcher or carried by truck or armored personnel carrier. They were operated by a three-man crew.

Both recoilless rifles proved to have poor accuracy in testing, so the shell's greatest effect would have been its extreme radiation hazard. Even at a low yield setting, the M388 would produce an almost instantly lethal radiation dosage (in excess of 10,000 rem) within 500 feet (150 m), and a probably fatal dose (around 600 rem) within a quarter mile (400 meters). With no shielding or protection from either blast or radiation, a Davy Crockett crew would have been unlikely to survive an engagement without long-term health risks.

The warhead was tested on July 7, 1962 in the LITTLE FELLER II weapons effects test shot, and again in an actual firing of the Davy Crockett from distance of 1.7 miles (2.72 km) in the "SMALL BOY" test shot (LITTLE FELLER I) on July 17. This was the last atmospheric test detonation at the Nevada Test Site.

Production of the Davy Crockett began in 1956. 2,100 were produced. The weapon was deployed with U.S. Army forces from 1961 to 1971.

Versions of the W54 warhead were also used in the Special Atomic Demolition Munition project and the AIM-26A Falcon.
__________________
Age and treachery will always beat youth and skill
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old July 27th, 2005, 09:47 AM
Listy's Avatar

Listy Listy is offline
Sergeant
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 358
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Listy is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

Quote:
MarkSheppard said:
A 1 kt weapon would only vaporize everything utterly in a radius of 30-40 meters, and the various weapon effects
such as ionizing radiation, air blast, thermal pulse, would
extend out to 700-800 meters.

Just for amusement I'll get on it on Friday night.. However I can see one big problem straight away.

Even with warhead and HEK set to 255, infantry still survive at ground zero. it will do aloft of damage, but won't wipe out the targets.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old July 27th, 2005, 09:52 AM
MarkSheppard's Avatar

MarkSheppard MarkSheppard is offline
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 1,414
Thanks: 103
Thanked 648 Times in 432 Posts
MarkSheppard is on a distinguished road
Default Re: Tactical or normal nuke modelling

Quote:
Listy said:
Even with warhead and HEK set to 255, infantry still survive at ground zero. it will do aloft of damage, but won't wipe out the targets.
I've done some tests before, what I found to be close to a realistic nuke blast was using a MRLS style setup with accuracy of 100%, and having multiple 255/255 "Shots" hitting
the same hex in rapid succession.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:26 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©1999 - 2025, Shrapnel Games, Inc. - All Rights Reserved.