obat44 - West Germany

[PlasmaKrab]

A few points I came across through the German OOB:

Fennek first:

Isn't 1998 quite early for a service date?
From the official BW site, I'd tend to say 2001 at first.

Furthermore, it seems that a FO version (VB) is planned for the near future. Sensor suite stays the same, armament is changed to a MG3 AAMG.

I am searching for an official source about this, but to no avail yet. Here are some pics:
http://www.primeportal.net/apc/fennek.htm
And I got a source from the German publication "Soldat und Technik", April 2003: "Die modernste Artillerie der Welt und ihre Defizite", stating that as of 2002, 38 Fennek VB were due to be fielded by January 2004.

And what about the designation?
I heard something about "SpPz-2" (Spähpanzer, armored scout vehicle), but the official seems to be still "Spähwagen leicht 4 Rad FENNEK", which is quite hard to sum up.


Other matter is the Wiesel:

AFAIK the MK in "Wiesel MK" stands for "MaschinenKanone", that is, Autocannon.
In that perspective the current "Wiesel 1 MK TOW" in the game sounds strange?
I am pretty sure about this, but surely there are German veterans around here with better info on this.

Cheers all,

Plasma

[Alpha]

Well there are much probs in the german OOB.

i corrected a few ones:

a) Mountain troops now have better exp + mor than normal grunts. they are now a little weaker than para but better than normal
b) Border guards ( which is meant "bundesgrenzschutz" i think ) should have also a bit better exp + mor then normal troops since these were no conscripts. Also they were in service minimun untill the fall of the wall.
c) PZH 2000 has now 1 more ROF ( also the question was asked above, if it should be also a bit more accurate and therefore a bit more expansive ? )
d) SP arty prices a bit changed ( 109 A3 was a bit too pricey for example )
e) Dornier 205 heli is now correct named "Bell UH 1D"
f) The ammo load f. SP mortars is correctd ( for example the hotchkiss SPmortar should have fewer ammo than the M113 )
g) The Luchs is now 1 size smaller and much faster than in the orig. OOB. there it was only 23 fast, much too low !

Shall i upload this OOB here ? I mean it is the minimun that everyone should have.

But there are more things that need to be looked at:

a) Missing troops: KSK commandos
b) Missing troops: Heimatschutztruppe
c) Missing vehicle: Scorpion minelayer
e) Missing weapon: Bunkerfaust
f) Missing weapon: Fliegerfaust 2
g) Wrong weapon: Armbrust for engineers (??) INFO ??
h) Is the 120mm mortar Wiesel already at the troops ?? I know it is planned.

Also i wonder why have the L44 120mm only 11 accuracy while the russian 125mm has 13 ? Thought german weapon is better than russian ?

Also i think some of the russian stuff should be a tad cheaper...

Thanx. Please discuss ! Also feel free to add above missing troops esp. the KSK !

@ plasma: Think ur right with your points also !

[PlasmaKrab]

Alpha:

a) KSK commandos: are you sure that would be useful in the game? heavy enough assets for conventional warfare?

c) Scorpion minelayer: no. no other answer, no way, that's what the team says, if you want to ask them. Too much disequilibrating in the gameplay, FASCAM is meant to be sufficient. Of course you can mod what you want for your own pleasure, but don't await onboard mineplanters in the official version

e) Bunkerfaust: confirmation about it being in service in the BW?

f) Fliegerfaust 2 = FIM-92 Stinger. Just the same, check the official webpage. Maybe the name should be changed to "Fliegerfaust 2" for the weapon or unit, if it is the official name from now on. First time I hear it though!

h) planned, should check the service date. BTW, no other useable Wiesel II versions in service, only SAM, engineer recon and ambulance AFAIK.

And are you sure that the "border section" of the game is what you think it is? Apparently the only link with the BGS is a possible faraway filiation. The Bundeswehr was founded in 1955, right? So any units before are to be considered out of any BW context, any current context actually.

And about gun accuracy, the discussion is going on (hotly), and the most reasonable pointI heard is that the FC and rangefinder values influence the result much more than actual gun accuracy, which matches the real stuff.

Oh, and generally, all the prices are automaticaly calculated on common bases, which means that the prices are meant to be fair considering the content.

Otherwise, I think you got several points!

Cheers,

Plasma

[Alpha]

>>>>> KSK commandos: are you sure that would be useful in the game? heavy enough assets for conventional warfare?

mhh.. other nations also have commando troops in oob. like russian speznas, SAS etc...

>>>>>e) Bunkerfaust: confirmation about it being in service in the BW?

i read a article in the web somewhere. this is just a pz. faust3 with special warhead for bunkerbusting. so only the name and warhead must be changed i guess.

>>>f) Fliegerfaust 2 = FIM-92 Stinger. Just the same, check the official webpage. Maybe the name should be changed to "Fliegerfaust 2" for the weapon or unit, if it is the official name from now on. First time I hear it though!

okay, then i think the fliegerfaust 1 must be the redeye. fliegerfaust is def. the "off. name" since before 2 weeks or so i was at luftwaffe show where they had this weapon.

>>>>h) planned, should check the service date. BTW, no other useable Wiesel II versions in service, only SAM, engineer recon and ambulance AFAIK.

well any knowledgeable person could check when it could be becoming serviceable and add it.

>>>>And are you sure that the "border section" of the game is what you think it is? Apparently the only link with the BGS is a possible faraway filiation. The Bundeswehr was founded in 1955, right? So any units before are to be considered out of any BW context, any current context actually.

mhh.. don´t know. it is also not that important. best would be to delete the border section at all, since it gives not much more value or differences to normal light infantry.


so if any person with more time to research the stuff reads this, would be fine. i will make 3-4 changes to my oob and post it here so everyone can use this as a base.

i also think there should be a special air assault ( or sumthing like that ) section that fit´s in wiesel apc....

thanx....for contribution.

[Alpha]

http://www.panzerbaer.de/archiv/seite_f.htm

early 50ties bundesgrenzschutz soldiers....

http://www.panzerbaer.de/archiv/bw_f...ewe_2004-a.htm

these some exercise photos from 2004.

excellent site + pics IMHO.

[Alpha]

Post deleted by Alpha

[DRG]

How long was the M8 in west German service??

Don

[Suurajatollah]

Well there are much probs in the german OOB.

i corrected a few ones:

a) Mountain troops now have better exp + mor than normal grunts. they are now a little weaker than para but better than normal
b) Border guards ( which is meant "bundesgrenzschutz" i think ) should have also a bit better exp + mor then normal troops since these were no conscripts. Also they were in service minimun untill the fall of the wall.
c) PZH 2000 has now 1 more ROF ( also the question was asked above, if it should be also a bit more accurate and therefore a bit more expansive ? )
d) SP arty prices a bit changed ( 109 A3 was a bit too pricey for example )
e) Dornier 205 heli is now correct named "Bell UH 1D"
f) The ammo load f. SP mortars is correctd ( for example the hotchkiss SPmortar should have fewer ammo than the M113 )
g) The Luchs is now 1 size smaller and much faster than in the orig. OOB. there it was only 23 fast, much too low !

Shall i upload this OOB here ? I mean it is the minimun that everyone should have.

Your corrections sounds good. I also like the idea of KSK commandos or another Germany Special Force units. Just like for example British SAS which are included.Repricing units sound a bit risky though unitcostcalculator sucks sometimes (Look at prices of on-map BM-22 Uragan and HIMARS) Where can I download your OOB?

Few questions:

*Did you also add extra +3 to Mountain Scouts?
*Is Fuchs with mauser only equipped wiht HP ammos, not AP?
*Does anyone know anything about these Panzerfaust modifications

http://www.waffenhq.de/infanterie/panzerfaust3.html

Thanks!

[Alpha]

hi friend,

i decided to not include the KSK, i have not enough knowledge about them. instead i incl. "standard" BGS troops. light inf with a bit better mor + exp. also i incl. bundesmarine divers (kampfschwimmer)...

1. mountain scouts get + 8 ( +5 geb.jaeger bonus + 3 scout bonus ).
2. you mean the fuchs 2 ? i did almost nothing to these future vehicles, since i more focus on present or ca. 20 years past.
3. these pz. faust 3 versions are quite new. i decided against the bunkerfaust since the normal pz. faust 3 is quite good already in the game. the other new version is a new warhead which should defeat ERA armor. i have no idea how to represent this double warhead at the pz.faust, so i leave this out also. but i tweaked the dates of all AT inf weapons: pzfaust3 avail a little later, both other models ( le. pzfaust44 + c. gustav have now longer service times, since the pz.faust 3 came not that fast to all troops, in fact i guess that some troops had to deal with the le. pz.faust quite a while even the pz.faust3 was produced already. )

hope this helps !

[Fabfire]

Hi, everybody!

Alpha's German OOBS are now available for download at:
the Armorsite's WinSPMBT page;
or direcly, thru this link: http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/WinS...OBpackV2.1.zip

Thank you Alpha, for sharing this excellent work with the WinSPMBT community.

Best regards for everyone,

Fab