Engineers laying mines

[KevinRanger95]

so it really won't cause any problems with the FASCAM being off map units? Thanks for the warning with the range 0 thing I tried it with a RTO or flame weapon out of the russian oob and not only did I crash the game but before it crashed I watched myself burst into flames and watched was left retreat, does that mean when i die I'll see how everything happens(lol), My main concern is say I have this weapon on a Blackhawk or some kind of heavy lift helo, can I control how many hexes that mines are laid to?
It was alot easier when I just printed out how to do it off this forum, really alot easier!!!!!!
My engineer buddies and I had this conversation today, and I totally agree that its not over powering and its very useful, of course their argue is the same as everyone else's, whos better than the rest of the combined arms group! you know ENGINEERS lead the way! And of course I had to argue why armor is the king of battle!!!
I don't know for game purposes if having little sapper men run around laying one or two mines in the middle of a road is worth it or not, but on the other side of things I still play this as a platoon level game which would fit this type of warfare perfectly! And by no means am I asking for this unit to be created, If I want it I'll find a way to make it myself.
Thanks for all of this, this is the first time I have to MOBHACK any thing and I'm finding it to be fun!!!!!!

[Listy]

MOBhack, I would erge you Not to kill any units.
Just keep the Offical OOB's free of such units.

Allow us the freedom to play with the game, and use units we create.

[Mobhack]

Right now, I will leave that exploit of the bug in. No guarantees, but future editions of the code may well have some code added to look for illegal combinations.


Andy

[KevinRanger95]

Mobhack, I don't know alot of what you said, and I seen kill in there somewhere, and farmers muck and I know none of that is good, but everything else, well, You got me!
I think what you are saying is don't play these against or provide these to anyone else!
I also agree with the whole assualt thing, for AI purposes, But some countries don't bury mines anymore, they surface lay them with the intent to direct or manuver a enemy force in a certain direction. It takes less than 3 min to employ a M-21 tilt rod mine or 30sec for a ground or air FASCAM minefield, now don't get me wrong I understand what you are saying, and this is strickly conversational not a plea for a piece of equipment, but many engagements have went one way or another due to a Airborne Engineers hasty laid minefield of 3 mines across the road to buy some time for what ever reason, and that is what I am trying to create!

[KevinRanger95]

I also know you can't determine a mine being buried or surface laid in the game!!!!!

[Mobhack]

A hex is 50 metres.

let's call it square for ease of calculation (it will actually be more)

Let us assume that 1 mine point represents about one mine in every 5 by 5 metre box for ease of calculation.

50 times 50 is 2500 square metres. divide by 5 times 5 is 25, so 2500/25 = 100 mines as a WAG for the amount needed.

100 anti-tank mines, are not carried in the back pack of a 10 man engineer section.

Additionally - SP minefields are dual purpose. So add a minimum of 100 anti-personell mines to our little garden of death. probably more, as apers to AP ratio os usually 2 to 1. say 300 mines.

A 1 point minefield may well be less than that figure i first guessed at - assume a narrow belt somewhere in the 50 by 50 square, rest being empty, so back to maybe 150 actaul mines. Still, probably a truck-load. And much more than a quick "phut" from some mine dispenser vehicle, which probably can throw a couple of dozen per discharge?. A bar mine layer might have 150 mines inside, but to plough that area would take it a half an hour (more?) - plus initial survey of the ground, placement of tapes and so on.

Any real minelaying is therefore not realistic in game terms. manual digging of the things would need a couple of sections (20 or so guys) and an ammo vehicle, with no interruptions, for maybe 2-3 hours (I dont have my mine warfare text to hand ATM). Surface laying would possibly bring the time down to 45 minutes or an hour - still not feasable in game terms, and we do not have a counter or any real concept in the game engine of an engineer task that needs 30+ turns uninterrupted to complete a task.


A mine symbol is not 2 engineer guys placing a half a dozen real mines into a 50 by 50 meter (half a football pitch or so) area.

Cheers
Andy

[KevinRanger95]

WOW, thats alot of mines, not what I'm looking for.
And I forgot about the whole AP mines, I'm not a cannon cocker but I did know they were dual purpose.
Yeh game scale forgot that to, half a football field is a big place to drive through with 2 or 3 mines laid.
Ok I have accomplished a couple of things
1- I burnt my brain messing with a couple of engineer guys
2- I mock some of the people who don't think before they type, and realized I have become one of those
3- I don't like mines in real life or this game but both are in my life in real and in the game
4- Andy, you are the only one I know that can use "FARMERS MUCK SPRAYING" in a sentence which deters the use of mines.
Wonder if we can't get you to speak at the UN on banning mines in warfare and you have to use that phrase in your speech.(lol)
As Maj. Abrams told use one day in pinion canyon, "men if you find yourself in a FASCAM mine field, don't get off your tank, they lay anti personnel mines also".
Thanks andy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Listy]

Mobhack said:
Still, probably a truck-load. And much more than a quick "phut" from some mine dispenser vehicle, which probably can throw a couple of dozen per discharge?.

Shielder kicks out 240 mines in one salvo. I belive it can lay a mine feild 1KM long as well, Although that's probaly just a single line.

Shielder is bassed on the US M163 Volcano Mine laying system normaly mounted on a truck.

The other "On map" Mine laying unit I created was a tornado armed with a hunting JP233 and that has 215 mines per pod, and it carries two pods.

Don't ya jsut hate me?

[Weeble]

Here is are the vital stats for 'Volcano' and other SCATMINE from the Stryker Brigade Combat Team Field Manual at:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...ap10.htm#10-22

Note in particular the

limitations 10-24 f

required densities table 10-3

(0.5 mines per square metre to 'delay') Mobhack was actally underestimating the number of mines required in his earlier example.

laying & reload times 10-26 c 1

( 10mins & 20mins plus movement time for an experienced crew) 3turns plus 7turns plus....

Please also note 10-28 b table 10-6

Minimum safe distance 235m (5 hexes)
Theoretical danger distance 640m (13 hexes)

You would probably blow yourself up an the approx 5% mislaid mines.

Also if they are randomly scattered how are you going to get out of the hex?

[Mobhack]

One mine unit is a lot of actual mines, covering a 50 metre hex area, and hidden, ie buried.

Minelets are auto detected (as they are on the surface) - but they probably should have been removed when we converted to DOS SPMBT but had been there in the original OOBS, and were probably there in some scenarios as well. it takes a long time (an hour plus) of 18 or so 155mm howitzers laying minelet rounds, to cover a 150 metre or so minefield to an effective level. They are not instant, ans so really as we cannot do fractions of .001 of a mine unit mine laying, then the only mines really should be the pre laid ones as with SPWW2. Minelets would make sense in a division level game, which this is not. hence the restriction to 3 or so rounds, and the high cost, to balance the unrealistic laying time the game engine allows them.

Adding crop-spraying mine units in human hands, is not therefore a good idea, as they themselves would need several reloads to fill a 50 metre square to an EFFECTIVE barrier level. 1 hex point of mines of mines in SP games is an effective barrier level, and not a "nuisance" amount.

Cheers
Andy