OT: Stop IE

[wilhil]

do I really care about designing for w3c standards, NO! I will develop for what is popular, and as long as that is internet explorer, I have no reason to change.

over half the sites out there are probably not w3c fully compatible, but look, the internet is not shuting down, failing, or anything. IT WORKS! get used to it!

this website is great! if it has any png images, I would never know, I am not seeing any problems, if png was THAT popular for websites, I am sure everyone would start using it, and then microsoft would make it compatible, although I went to a website with png images, and found NO problem. I use IE almost all the time, I have never seen a problem with images,

I see you did not quote el_phil saying:
Frankly if the site doesn't support IE it's the sites problem, not the browser. If you don't support the 85%+ market leader your stuborn or stupid.

I have to agree with this.

If mozilla or other browsers get over 30% share, then I will start using standards, but as far as I think, my sites work in IE, my sites work in mozilla, but why should I make extra care to make sure they work in mozilla when the user base is a fraction of IE

This is frankly a rediculous argument that always comes up, I have no problem with IE, and why should I change something that works fine, and I have no problems with, just because you are saying IE does not comply with standards that I do not need to use as my site works with IE, and other useless points.

I am sure there are more sites on the internet that are compatible with IE and more importantly WORK in IE than sites that are w3c standards, so I from this moment am going to start a new standard, IE compatible! and my sites are compatible with it, long live forever IE compatible, die w3c!

[wilhil]

Internet Explorer - Slow or Fast?
Despite being bloated, standards uncompliant, buggy and dangerous, Microsoft's Internet explorer is fast. It is fast however due to the simple fact that it is integrated into windows and because it has a stone-age, limited rendering engine.

// I have NEVER had speed problems

So, even though being technically fast,
// OH, SO THEY WENT BACK ON THEIR FIRST POINT???
it does not render the page well. You may not be able to read the text correctly, or have some other problem due to its rendering. So in reality - it can be slow.
//BS! I am a internet junky! I go on so many news sites daily, forums, and a whole load more, I HAVE NEVER had a rendering problem, and I have a 8mb/s connection, my connection is never slow, the truth with pictures and others coming is deep in mozilla code, it has a minimum of 8 connections to a webserver, which in actuall facts, when a webserver is having 1000 clients connecting to a image heavy site, this is the equivilant of 8000 connections, slowing down a webserver, so it can be quicker, where as IE has a default of I think 2, this can be changed in the registry. This setting is more generous to webservers, and if changed, the speed can be improved


Tabbed browsing - Seems quicker
Tabbed browsing allows the user to open and view many pages at once, across many different websites. You can open a link 'in a new tab', and while it is loading, you can continue reading the page you are on.
//I agree, tabbed browsing is great, but it makes no diffrence to shift clicking and opening a new window, then alt tabing back.


This definitely (for dial-up users anyway) makes the internet seem faster. Tabbed browsing is a feature that IE does not support.
// It does with addons. If you are using dial up in 2005, you really only have yourself to blame!

However, the alternatives do.

Standards resistance = slower internet
Because Internet Explorer doesn't support CSS properly (faster download, because a page's design must only be loaded once, then just content), programmers and web designers must use 'hacks', or old or invalid code (takes longer to load). This means IE is slowing the entire Internet down significantly!
//I have not got a lot of experiance with css, but I would of thought that the css file would need to be downloaded each time you go to a diffrent page, so hows this diffrent, css is mainly a way for web developers to easily update mass sites in one go, with fonts and stuff, it makes no diffrence to the user if the site is css or not, I could be wrong here, but I do not really 100% understand the new css, I use the old css, and it works fine!


Web developers must go to extra lengths to make PNG alpha transparency, drop-down menus, and many other nice features work in Internet Explorer.
//ahh, BS, I use JPG, works great!

Internet Explorer: Increased costs for all
Because web designers need to charge higher prices to ensure that pages work in Internet Explorer, their clients must pay extra. These costs are then passed down to you, the consumer.
//nope, just use visual studio.net 2003 for asp.net or frontpage for normal html and asp, it works great, and always compatible with IE, view my last part in my last post.


Speed up the Web? Get rid of Internet Explorer
Get an alternative to Internet Explorer. You'll be saving money for people, and speeding up the web for yourself and others.
// sounds like someone just hates microsoft.

[Fyron]

I HAVE NEVER had a rendering problem...

Because site designers are forced to use terrible hacks to work with IE bugs. That's the whole point... HTML code should work identically in all browsers WITHOUT special hacks. Thus, the w3c standards.

...mozilla code... a minimum of 8 connections to a webserver

More like 2...

//I agree, tabbed browsing is great, but it makes no diffrence to shift clicking and opening a new window, then alt tabing back.

This is true. However, it is very messey to have 8 or 9 windows open. Tabs are an excellent organizational tool.

...If you are using dial up in 2005, you really only have yourself to blame!

How elitist of you.

//I have not got a lot of experiance with css, but I would of thought that the css file would need to be downloaded each time you go to a diffrent page

Not at all. The browser cache stores 1 copy of the CSS file that does not need to be downloaded over and over again. It makes a huge difference in bandwidth and loading times.

Web developers must go to extra lengths to make PNG alpha transparency, drop-down menus, and many other nice features work in Internet Explorer.
//ahh, BS, I use JPG, works great!

Wow... just wow. Yay for stifling innovation!

//nope, just use visual studio.net 2003 for asp.net or frontpage for normal html and asp, it works great, and always compatible with IE, view my last part in my last post.

Front Page is one of the worst web page design tools out there. It creates bloated, buggy code. It most assuredly does not produce "normal HTML."

Speed up the Web? Get rid of Internet Explorer
Get an alternative to Internet Explorer. You'll be saving money for people, and speeding up the web for yourself and others.
// sounds like someone just hates microsoft.

Umm... no, it doesn't.

[Renegade 13]

wilhil said:
If you are using dial up in 2005, you really only have yourself to blame!

I'm sorry, but this is blatently untrue. Where I live right now, in the center of British Columbia, Canada, outside of a city, all we have access to is dial-up. Satellite: Maybe. Far far too expensive though. Cable: Nope. ADSL: Nope.

And I'm to blame for this...how?

[wilhil]

Renegade 13 said:

I'm sorry, but this is blatently untrue. Where I live right now, in the center of British Columbia, Canada, outside of a city, all we have access to is dial-up. Satellite: Maybe. Far far too expensive though. Cable: Nope. ADSL: Nope.

And I'm to blame for this...how?

yeah sorry for that comment! I can admit when I am wrong, but still, there is a huge percentage of users with broadband now adays as where it is, it is usually cheap and affordable, if you do not have it in your area, Im sorry and retract that comment!

[NullAshton]

Wilhil, Fyron, you people are basically on the same side. You both know that IE has several 'design features' that should be avoided, because of compatibility issues with other browsers. You both also agree that it's smarter to design websites to work on all browsers, and not exclude one browser because of those same 'design features'. Might I ask, then, what it is you are arguing about? Both of you people achieve the same result in the end, a website that will work equally for everyone. Does it really matter what route you use to achieve such ends?

[Fyron]

NA:
As per posts #388024 and #388031, this has pretty much already occured.

[wilhil]

NullAshton said:
Wilhil, Fyron, you people are basically on the same side. You both know that IE has several 'design features' that should be avoided, because of compatibility issues with other browsers. You both also agree that it's smarter to design websites to work on all browsers, and not exclude one browser because of those same 'design features'. Might I ask, then, what it is you are arguing about? Both of you people achieve the same result in the end, a website that will work equally for everyone. Does it really matter what route you use to achieve such ends?

Because when someone starts I get involved! lol

the argument was mainly about web browsers, not websites... but I do get your point, but still I just am a little annoyed because as I said, I do not mind people advising programs, saying, why not try mozilla, you can do this, maybe if I was using IE 3, and then they said try mozilla, it is much better, but frankly, mozilla vs IE is nothing more than someone pushing their points of view on another, which is no better than propaganda in my books.

The owner of stopie.com is just another microsoft hating person.

I am not to keen of some areas of microsoft, but they have good products, why should I stop using them?

[Renegade 13]

wilhil said:
yeah sorry for that comment! I can admit when I am wrong, but still, there is a huge percentage of users with broadband now adays as where it is, it is usually cheap and affordable, if you do not have it in your area, Im sorry and retract that comment!

Thanks!

[El_Phil]

There is really a US law about website access for disabled people? Is it just zoomable, scalable text or something more?