What it will take for me to purchase Dom III

[Arralen]

You're right.
This is a very accurate analysis and critcism of Dom2.

It might help somewhat to try a game with

• very difficult research
• map with 10..14 prov/players
• indies 6 or 7
• sites <45% *i forgot to mention*

That way it should take some time for the summons to show up. Nations like Vanheim with a Fire9-Water9 bless could get away without any summons for quite some time. But, o.c., in the long run they are inevitable.

Unless you use some mods.
E.g. you may mod the scales and the production settings so you get more growth, more supplies and more gold - all this will strengthen the conventional units somewhat.

And if I ever find the time before Dom3 arrives (or maybe even afterwards), I'll finish my mod which roughly doubles the gems costs of summons and will make most of them require upkeep. This is a huge task, so I can't promise I'll ever finish it, sadly.

A.

edit: added sites setting

[Sammas]

Even with the bias toward magic, Dominions still has far more content and depth in it than any other game in its genre.

But yes, I too think it could be even better if national troops played a role throughout the game (configurable PD? more spells enhancing national troops and troop production? better gains from XP?).

At the moment, to lessen the power of magic, you need to make research harder, reduce magic sites (on large maps), and ban or limit clams, fetishes, and blood stones.

[Ironhawk]

Yeah your points are good BigMoney. I'm also saddened by how little national troops get used as well. Dom2 definitely has a bias towards summoned creatures for combat. The only way you could really get away with it is with an uber-bless on a small map as Arralen pointed out. But of course thats just a niche case.

That said, I still think that Dom2 is the best MP game out there. National troops aside, it still has the most depth of anything I've seen. Plus it really has the format and pacing for long term multiplayer games down *pat*.

As for how to solve the problem of national troops... dunno. Maybe you could have it where mortal/national troops gain exp way faster? Or perhaps there could be national spells which effect only national units? Kind of like a bless but on regulars? That would make national units increase in power as you put in more research.

Might also be interesting to have new buildable structures. They would add on a nation-specific site that would allow you to recruit really really powerful national elite troops on par with summons. Could make the sites cost like 2000gold and like 30gems of whatever that nation normally uses? Some kind of mechanic like that where you can put an investment in that is not based on Research and magic/gems.

Oh - I forgot to mention the battlefield killer spells (wrathful skies, etc). Gonna have to do something about them if you want to have more emphasis on troops. Right now battle magic goes: single target, ball target, slightly larger ball, and *entire battlefield*. Might be nice to have some more granuality there and less extremeity at the end

[condors]

I think every troop summoned or not should have an upkeep value attached to it (closest to being free should be your national troops, than neutrals, highest should be magic summons). Bane lords shouldn't serve me for nothing while commander joe costs me money every turn.(imho)

[Arralen]

As I Said - doubling the gem cost and giving them a gold cost (upkeep = cost/15) will do the trick. I started working on the mod, but it's a hughe task and I doubt I'll ever get it finished without help.

Btw., doubling the summoning costs will make thugs from hired commanders more viable, and forged low-level items more valuable. Atm, who's going to forge a spear for 5 nature gems if he can get 10 or more vine men for the same amount of gems?

[Chazar]

condors said:
I think every troop summoned or not should have an upkeep value attached to it (closest to being free should be your national troops, than neutrals, highest should be magic summons). Bane lords shouldn't serve me for nothing while commander joe costs me money every turn.(imho)

Completely agreed! Resources, upkeep & food cleverly govern troops! The whole thing is just side-stepped by powerful non-eating upkeep-free summons! I don't mind ashen-empire's soulless and their ilk, but immortal commanders should demand something for their power! So what's the solution?

Limiting the time of service of a summon, thus turning higher summons into mercernaries paid with gems instead of gold? Hmm, not sure if I would like that... Otherwise, undead/demon pretenders receiving discounts on summoning might then present a bridge between both systems.

Let's hope that DomIII improves that situation, without loosing its endgame-flavour as a war of gods and magic where mortal pawns are consumed by the dozen...this is important too, isn't it?

[Arralen]

You don't have to wait for Dom3 - modding Dom2 gives enough possibilities to rectify the shortcomings IMHO.

So any volunteers to help me ?

[shovah]

Chazar said:

Completely agreed! Resources, upkeep & food cleverly govern troops! The whole thing is just side-stepped by powerful non-eating upkeep-free summons! I don't mind ashen-empire's soulless and their ilk, but immortal commanders should demand something for their power! So what's the solution?

Limiting the time of service of a summon, thus turning higher summons into mercernaries paid with gems instead of gold? Hmm, not sure if I would like that... Otherwise, undead/demon pretenders receiving discounts on summoning might then present a bridge between both systems.

Let's hope that DomIII improves that situation, without loosing its endgame-flavour as a war of gods and magic where mortal pawns are consumed by the dozen...this is important too, isn't it?

would immortality not be enough of a payment?

[Endoperez]

shovah said:

would immortality not be enough of a payment?

Shovah makes a good point. Most of the immortal commanders are not recruited, but granted the power of immortality. This is the case with at least Demiliches and regular Vampires, probably with Vampire Counts as well. Similarly, most of the summons are willing to fight, for the gratitude of letting them here or for the joy of fighting on itself.

Non-mindless commanders, maybe units too, should have some kind of an upkeep cost though. There isn't any reason to use national units over summoned ones. It would be nice to have a reason to do what I've been doing all along.
In Master of Magic, only national units could become experienced. This might work in Dominions as well. Creatures like Devils should have to fight for their first star as much as the Velites fight for their third or fourth, as the trident-wielders have already fought for centuries in the depths of Hell from where they were summoned.

[B0rsuk]

Unless you use some mods.
E.g. you may mod the scales and the production settings so you get more growth, more supplies and more gold - all this will strengthen the conventional units somewhat.

I don't like this solution at all. Why should I have to pay additional costs to have halfway decent conventional army ? I already pay in gold and food - and now design points ? Scales aren't free.
I think that base income should be increased, not effectiveness of scales. Of course, if base amount of gold/resources was higher, scales would get you more, too. But I don't like the concept of scales being a requirement for decent conventional army.