Discussion on 4X games.

[Baron Munchausen]

Has anyone been reading the MOO 3 site? (heh... like anyone in this thread would NOT have been to the MOO 3 site!)

The more I read of the over-views, pre-views, official pronouncements and what not, the better it sounds. They seem to be doing everything right! MOO 3 might be the greatest game of the genre just like Civ 3 is likely to be the greatest of its own genre.

Until Civ 4 and MOO 4, anyway...

The description of the new interstellar travel system sounds like modified warp points, btw. They seem to have no worries about borrowing good ideas from other games. They will have both the 'flat-space' model and something like warp-points in the same game. I wish MM would steal from MOO more shamelessly.


[This message has been edited by Baron Munchausen (edited 18 October 2001).]

[Tampa_Gamer]

Baron - I agree. I also like the advanced ground combat model. It looks like they took some of the better elements from the ground combat in Star General (my favorite aspect of that particular game). For SE5, I would love for MM to team up with one of the other engines here at Shrapnel (i.e. the War Engine or CC2 engine) for ground combat.

[This message has been edited by Tampa_Gamer (edited 18 October 2001).]

[JDC]

I'm showing my age here but the original SSG "Reach for the Stars" pointed the way for contemporary PC 4X space games. In it's day, it was unsurpassed.

Its later reincarnations has shown how a system can be too ingrown. While the "RftS" by-word was simplicity, the ability of gamers has outgrown the level of simplicity maintained. SSG confused improvements with graphics so the later Versions are the same constructs with a pretty interface. We've gone beyond that and that's the point designers should keep in mind. Is SE4 as pretty as the latest "RftS"? No. Is it a deeper game? Yes. Is it more popular? Yes. We can then conclude that designers should concentrate on gameplay.

I look forward to MOO3. I know one of the people working on it and he does have a sense of balance.

[Repo Man]

One of the best ground combat models which would work great for the SE series is the old Pacific War model by Gary Grisby. This classic was released in 1993 or so, and is now free for downloading at www.matrixgames.com.

Translating the pacwar model to SEIV (or maybe SEV<g> ), here is how I would approach it.

The basic ground unit would be a division. Of course, this name could me modded to pretty much anything, such as legion, corp, herd, or whatever.

Empires would raise troops from population (exceptions could apply of course for special races), these would fill the division’ ranks. Equipment for the division could and would me upgraded; equipment would include troops personal armor, small arms, artillery, tanks, and so forth. The equipment would be produced similar to the way troops are now produced, but once produced, be treated like stored minerals.

This pool of equipment is directly from Pacwar and its cousin, War in Russia (also available for free).

Divisions would remain and not be scrapped to upgrade, but when ready, there would be an equipment upgrade. Of course, the training level would drop as the troops would have to be retrained in the new equipment.

Supply should also be critical for troops, and I would increase its importance for both ships and troops; not for micromanagement purposes but rather to give greater depth and meaning to the space combat. After all, the SE series is really about ship to ship combat. But I digress.

Ground combat should be designed to Last more than one turn, the average combat should be designed to take approximately 10 turns, provided the ground troops can receive both replacements and supplies. That in turn, results in fighting for control of the space around a planet becomes critical, cutting off the supply source would lead to a huge advantage on the ground. Of course, maintaining a tight blockade should be much harder than simply winning combat around the planet, and in fact, could give rise to a whole slew of new combats; blockade running.

If only I knew how to program.

[AJC]

One thing I do like about SE3-4 series is it throws me back to the GOod ol Star Fire days... that was a pretty cool board game. I still like Moo2 and I am definately looking forward to Moo3.

[capnq]

My very first 4X game was Reach for the Stars, 3rd Edition. It was probably my favorite computer game until I bought Sid Meier's Civilization.

I currently have installed on my harddrive:

Master of Orion (haven't played MoO2), Reach for the Stars (current Version), Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri/Alien Crossfire, and SE IV.

Games that aren't on the HD any more:

Civilization II, Star Wars: Rebellion, Birthright, King of Dragon Pass.

(All the non-space games might technically not be 4X, but they're still empire management, so I included them.)

All of these had their strengths, and the only one I'd hesitate to reinstall if I had the HD space for it is Rebellion, mainly because it's the only real-time game in the lot, which made it almost unplayable for me.

The one I play the most now is SE IV, with SMAX in second place. I rarely play MoO or RftS, but there are other non-4X games on the HD that I'd uninstall before those.

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Cap'n Q
My first mod! Hypermaze quadrant
The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the
human mind to correlate all of its contents. We live on a placid
island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was
not meant that we should go far. -- HP Lovecraft, "The Call of Cthulhu"

[CyC]

The only 4x game I would still consider playing other than Se4 is Birth of The Federation.
Unfortunatly I have not been able to play it since My house hold had a win 2k upgrade and it no longer works, but rumors are spreading that it will be able to work under Windows XP.
BOFT is still one of my all time favourite games and sits up there with Total Annihilation for longest running computer games to sit on my computer

Ferengie are too powerful but in my opinion, especially if they are lucky enough to meet up with a few allies that they can buy out in the early game

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CyC
The Person not the AI
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