WINSPWW2?

[Artur]

wulfir said:

I'd like a Danish OOB too, for obvious reasons - then one could fight Sweden vs Denmark battles. Just like in the good old days, eh...? I'm Swedish.

LOL. Neighbours are just the same...

Artur.

[Nox]

Having Swedish OOB in the game is unrealistic. Sweden was a neutral country and did not participate in the war in any way. Sweden did not give any military support to Finland. And most sertanly Sweden was not an Ally to anyone. (Hence the word neutral country.) Finland did buy some weapons from Sweden but this is not the same as giving military support. Sweden did give humanitarian aid to Finland which was allowed for a neutral country to do. If Sweden is there already then why not add other neutral countries like Spain, Switzerland, etc. also?

I dont see any sence in adding Denmark either. Denmark was an occupied country. If you want to represent Danish born people fighting alongside German units then add them to the German OOB.

If you have to add Danish OOB then make it from 1930-1940 only.
Same thing for Swedish OOB 1930-1940.

[wulfir]

Nox said:
Having Swedish OOB in the game is unrealistic. Sweden was a neutral country and did not participate in the war in any way. Sweden did not give any military support to Finland. And most sertanly Sweden was not an Ally to anyone. (Hence the word neutral country.) Finland did buy some weapons from Sweden but this is not the same as giving military support. Sweden did give humanitarian aid to Finland which was allowed for a neutral country to do. If Sweden is there already then why not add other neutral countries like Spain, Switzerland, etc. also?

I dont see any sence in adding Denmark either. Denmark was an occupied country. If you want to represent Danish born people fighting alongside German units then add them to the German OOB.

If you have to add Danish OOB then make it from 1930-1940 only.
Same thing for Swedish OOB 1930-1940.

I disagree with pretty much everything you've stated.

Swedish OOB unrealistic? I don't see how...? Sweden as a country existed during the war. The same goes for the other neutrals - Spain for example which is also in the game

Limiting OOBs to certain stop dates...? Why? So that no "what ifs" can be created - sounds like a hopeless crusade to me...

I'd support the inclusion of any country in the game, however minor it may have been. After all, it's not like anybody is forceing players to use them...

Lastly:

Nox said:Sweden was a neutral country and did not participate in the war in any way. Sweden did not give any military support to Finland.

Are two puzzeling statements but interesting nonetheless. If you have the time it would be happy to hear what you base them on. PM me if you like...

[cbo]

Nox said:
I dont see any sence in adding Denmark either. Denmark was an occupied country. If you want to represent Danish born people fighting alongside German units then add them to the German OOB.

France was an occupied country, Poland was an occupied country, Holland was an occupied country... I could go on and on.

The fact is that Denmark was attacked by Germany on April 9th 1940 and there was a few hours of fighting in Jutland as well as in Copenhagen. There was fighting again in 1943 when the German Army decided to disarm and demobilize the Danish Army, also about half a day.
Of course, both occasions could be elaborated on with what-ifs and you could even make a two-battle campaign Or include the Danish debacle in a "Weserübung" campaign.

Nox said:If you have to add Danish OOB then make it from 1930-1940 only.

Why? The Danish Army remained operational under the German occupation until August 1943.

As I said before, though Denmark was not a major combattant, at least the country did fight - as opposed to Sweden (but keep the Swedes in - we have scores to settle, particularily since the latest articles in Aftonbladet about Denmark ). So if participation is a criterum - then Denmark should be in - at some point.

Claus B

[Nox]

wulfir said:
Are two puzzeling statements but interesting nonetheless. If you have the time it would be happy to hear what you base them on. PM me if you like...

What I mean is that Sweden was neutral in 1941-1945. It was not in war whit any country. As for the military support. If you count the selling of ammunition and old guns. Then yes Sweden did give military support to Finland. However this was not done officialy or in so large scale that the Allies or the Russians would have wanted to declare war against Sweden. Neither did Sweden engage in actual fighting whit any country or deploy its forces to fight alongside other forces. A few thousand volunteers does not count for actual military support if you compare this to the weapons and military forces that were coming from Germany at the time. So at that time the official oppinion of all the major powers was that Sweden was not giving military support to Finland and that Sweden remained a neutral country.

Also Sweden as every other neutral country was not neutral just because it was not engaging in the war. The neutral treaty was an official writen document signed whit all the major forces (USA, Great Britain, USSR, Germany) and breaking it would have had wery serious consequences.

cbo said:
Why? The Danish Army remained operational under the German occupation until August 1943.

A few hours in 1940 and about a day of fighting in 1943 is not enough for a new OOB in my oppinion. Denmark as a country whit free will and political power did not exist during the time of German occupation so it should not be in the game, at least during the years of 1941-1945. I doubt the Danish Army was nothing more than a national puppet for the people to keep them happy. I cant see that they could have really attacked Germany or Sweden under the Danish flag in those years. Bottom line is that Denmark had capitulated in 1940.

IMHO every country in-game should seize to be available after they were conquered or turned neutral. Whatif scenarions can still be created using the Editor even if the country is unavailable for a random battle at that date.

[cbo]

Nox said:
A few hours in 1940 and about a day of fighting in 1943 is not enough for a new OOB in my oppinion. Denmark as a country whit free will and political power did not exist during the time of German occupation so it should not be in the game, at least during the years of 1941-1945.

Why 1941? What happened in 1941? Also, the Danish goverment did excercise a large degree of control until 1943.

Nox said:I doubt the Danish Army was nothing more than a national puppet for the people to keep them happy. I cant see that they could have really attacked Germany or Sweden under the Danish flag in those years. Bottom line is that Denmark had capitulated in 1940.

But German attacked the Danish Army in 1943. The Army had most of its weapons available and was primarily disarmed because the German military command in Denmark did not want to have it in their rear in case of an allied invasion.

Nox said:
IMHO every country in-game should seize to be available after they were conquered or turned neutral. Whatif scenarions can still be created using the Editor even if the country is unavailable for a random battle at that date.

So France should be removed in June 1940?

I dont think your ideas quite manage to reflect how complex the political situation was in Europe during WWII and your suggestions would remove the possibility of many odd and interesting encounters. I guess I take quite the opposite point of view. Rather than reducing the game to a limited number of countries available at very limited periods, it should be expanded as much as the developers have the time and energy for. Once you've played your 253rd German vs US encounter, that tends to get a bit old, so being able to do something odd like Belgium vs Italy in Etheopia 1941 or Denmark vs Germany in 1943 is what adds flavour to the game and, together with the many SPCAMO improvements, makes it playable still, 10 years after it first came out.

Claus B

[wulfir]

cbo said:
Rather than reducing the game to a limited number of countries available at very limited periods, it should be expanded as much as the developers have the time and energy for. Once you've played your 253rd German vs US encounter, that tends to get a bit old...

I agree with Claus. Include instead of reduce, the more possibileties the better. The ones who prefer to play that 254th German vs US encounter can still do it. For us who don't mind a little variation here's to hoping a Danish OOB gets included some time in the future.

If it does, we're coming you know. Dubbel svensk lösen!

[wulfir]

Nox said:
What I mean is that Sweden was neutral in 1941-1945. It was not in war whit any country.

Sweden was not at war 1930-1940 either yet you think a Swedish OOB might be allowed during this time...? That is a bit odd IMHO, the greatest threat of invasion came in 1942 in conjunction with the February crisis...? Not to mention the far advanced preparations for marching into Danmark/Norway in 1945…? Won’t be able to play those scenarios if you have your way.

US Army and USMC OOBs should be eliminated prior to Dec 1941 as well maybe...? It being a neutral country and all...?

Nox said:
As for the military support. If you count the selling of ammunition and old guns...

You don't count intelligence co-operation then..., not even Stella Polaris…?

Nox said:Neither did Sweden engage in actual fighting whit any country or deploy its forces to fight alongside other forces. A few thousand volunteers does not count for actual military support…..

No? When does it begin to count then…?

Nox said:So at that time the official oppinion of all the major powers was that Sweden was not giving military support to Finland and that Sweden remained a neutral country.

Official opinion heh…
It was convenient. Nobody was fooled by the so called neutrality.

Nox said:Also Sweden as every other neutral country was not neutral just because it was not engaging in the war. The neutral treaty was an official writen document signed whit all the major forces (USA, Great Britain, USSR, Germany) and breaking it would have had wery serious consequences.

The neutrality that never was…
It’s a myth.

The neutrality was broken on such numerous occasions during WWII and after that it’s almost like a poor joke.

[RubberNeck]

It is a great asset to the game to have these so-called 'minor' countries represented. Too many games (not to mention history texts) fail to give enough exposure to the roles played by these countries.

Even if a particular country did not mobilize an invasion force or other large scale operation there are often countless small internal engagements where the military or militia was used in countering sabotage, searching for escaped prisoners of war, civil uprising or even unofficial covert operations. These types of actions are prime material for gameplay and in my experience with the various SP games are often my favorites.

If someone is willing to spend the time to include these countries it can only benefit the entire SP community.

Rubberneck

[cbo]

Just dawned on my, that the Danish OOB should really be expanded to 1945 (or 1946 for what-ifs) as there was a brigade of Danish troops training in Sweden, equipped with Swedish weapons and intended to land in Denmark in case of an allied invasion. In the end, they sailed over when the Germans capitulated.
As per Wulfirs post - Swedish neutrality had a flexible quality to it

Claus B