Machaka in CB

[NTJedi]

I almost never use the black hunters until I have lots of gold stored up or coming into my kingdom. And when I do use them I make sure they travel with some strong mages to provide increased bonuses for their survival.

Also the rider of the black hunter is not that useful... it's the huge spider which lives a much longer time afterwards. Yet as mentioned earlier these only appear Mid and Late game for my armies.

[Morkilus]

I (the player) felt Fear for my units when I first saw the black hunter... then disappointment as he couldn't really do anything. NTJedi, do you actually find them useful when they are buffed, or would other high-protection units do just as well?

[halfzware]

thats exactly the thing - they LOOK amazing, but the best thing about them is their sprite.

EDIT: the problem with the second form is that its crappy. A single attack, moderate protection and 55hp. Not to mention any bless effects which are good for the spider suck for the rider, and vice versa. You are paying a huge premium for something that doesn't really help. If the warriors could dismount during combat and you had both units fighting seperate then they'd be a fair deal (125 for two units at 60 a pop) - but when you get in a situation where the rider dies, often its a situation where having the spider come next doesn't really help.

and again - the serpent cataphracts are almost exactly the same unit as the black spider for 75 less gold per pop.

[Arralen]

It's the old problem with the gold cost, unit stats and mounts. In general, you pay somewhat for getting a mounted unit. With some units, you pay for a unit with double hitpoints (1st and 2nd form), but as you only get them one after the other, price increase isn't that big. (=> Mictlan animal warriors, Serpent Cataphracts)

But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

There's one exception, though: Jotunheims Moose Riders. Instead of 2x 8HP, they get about 45 HP - from the Moose.

So there are 2 alternatives:
Price the Black Hunters similar to other nations 2-form blessable units.
Or add a %tage of the mounts HP to the first form. E.g. a knight might get +5..+7 from the horse, the Black Hunters would get +20HP. Some mounts hitpoints might be difficult to figure out, maybe +5HP per point of size the mounted unit is bigger than the unmounted rider would be as a general rule (what would not acount for exceptionally sturdy or fragile mounts, though)

HP values might be off somewhat, I'm too lazy to look them up, and I don't know them by heart. hmmm, should I ?

[Saber Cherry]

I don't think there's a problem... have you ever tried using Black Hunters with N9 + E9, W9, or F9? They are weak against MR saves (in the default game)... and otherwise ungodly powerful.

Nothing else is similar. Hydras are not sacred, as sacred hydras require a very weak theme. So for the same gold and half the upkeep, you can pit two double-9 blessed spiders against a hydra... and you'll win.

And I could be wrong... but I thought the only mounts that stay with you after the rider dies (and after the battle ends) were Black Spiders and Gryphons. Units that fight a little then run away don't concern me.

Arralen:
But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

They are not afflicted... the second form is pristine when the rider dies, IIRC. And with the usual nature bless, they are already poison-immune (or resistant?)


Essentially, you're approaching the 'problem' from the wrong angle. Black Hunters, like many sacred units, may be worthless without a strong bless... but strong blesses exist, so you have to compare them BLESSED. Marignon, Ulm, Man and Abysia also have units that benefit from Nature-9 blessing, but... only Black Hunters (of the four) regenerate a useful amount of health, or gain a useful amount of protection (having natural rather than metal armor). Unless countered by MR-save spells, Black Hunters / Spiders with a strong 99 bless can wipe out much more expensive armies easily. Not to mention that Spiders are upkeep-free in the base game (IIRC).

Try playing a game against some AIs on impossible, using nothing but N9F9 or N9E9 Black Hunters... and some support mages.

[halfzware]

Two quick notes:

I'm not saying that black hunters suck per say. I'm sure that with a F9 bless, in the late game, you can field 30 of them and have it be an effective force.

But if you are at a point in the game where gold still has real value to you - then black spiders simply are not worth the cost. In fact I'll make this bold statement to put things in perspective:

Spider Knights are better at cost. Even unblessed.

At 45 gold each, you can field ~14 of them for the cost of 5 black hunters. And I guarentee you 14 spider knights will win, even with F9W9. Not only would 14 spider knights beat 5 black hunters head to head but more importantly they will also do better vs a variety of units: all the way up from independants to thugs, and summons.

At worst, the black hunter is about equal to a knight, (although in a 1v1 I think the knight will probably win if it gets the first hit) so obviously they aren't that bad. What they are is: not worth their cost.

I'm not anywhere near suggesting a 20hp buff (which I think would push their cost past gold and into gems), what I'm suggesting is to raise their attack to around 14, their defense to around 14-16, their strength to 12, with a 5-20 gold cost reduction. Which at least makes their initial form effective.

But still, an E9N9 bless on a black hunter seems sorta weak. The berserk is basically guarenteeing the death of the rider, once dead E9N9 basically gives you a weak troll. So you're taking awful scales so you can afford a double 9 bless for what is effectivly 120 gold for a 50 gold knight that when dies turns into a 60 gold troll.

I can't see how thats worth while.

[Daynarr]

I agree with Saber Cherry 100%. Hunters need strong bless to be effective and worth the cost. If you put points in, for example, F9 N9 blessing they get so powerful that 125 seems cheap. The fact that mount stays after rider dies also justifies their cost. I've been playing Machaka a lot on both SP and MP (in fact they are my favorite) and always have been using black hunters to great effect. Besides, hunters are troops you will be buying in late MP game when SC's rule, and for troops that is rare occurrence.

The rest of the troops actually balance hunters even more. They are CHEAP and designed for single purpose in mind so nearly every troop (except Machaka militia) has a use and is inexpensive.

[Saber Cherry]

halfzware said:
But if you are at a point in the game where gold still has real value to you - then black spiders simply are not worth the cost. In fact I'll make this bold statement to put things in perspective:

Spider Knights are better at cost. Even unblessed.

At 45 gold each, you can field ~14 of them for the cost of 5 black hunters. And I guarentee you 14 spider knights will win, even with F9W9. Not only would 14 spider knights beat 5 black hunters head to head but more importantly they will also do better vs a variety of units: all the way up from independants to thugs, and summons.

...no, sorry. That's just wrong, IMO. Ignoring the fact that the resource and upkeep costs are totally different, the Black Hunters (N9F9, not F9W9) would still win.

But still, an E9N9 bless on a black hunter seems sorta weak.

It allows a small group of them to ride over virtually all indies with no losses - at the beginning of the game, when you have no good magic spells for your mages. You're not weighting protection heavily enough in your calculations - almost nothing can hurt them!

The berserk is basically guarenteeing the death of the rider

How? I don't follow. Berserk adds protection, making them even more invulnerable, and keeping them from retreating like a small party of Spider Knights would do.

once dead E9N9 basically gives you a weak troll.

A weak troll? With more hitpoints, berserk +3, no upkeep, lethal poison, magical flaming weapons and a high attack (or reinvigoration and additional protection)? Maybe you mean "Stronger and better than a troll in every way."

So you're taking awful scales so you can afford a double 9 bless for what is effectivly 120 gold for a 50 gold knight that when dies turns into a 60 gold troll.

Well... perhaps you've never seen them used effectively. Hunter Spiders make Machaka tie with Neifelheim as the easiest nations for a total beginner to play and destroy the AI with (N9E9 bless in each case), simply because each nation has a "Ultra Power Troop".

Before deciding that they are massively underpowered, try a quick game against some AI opponents, as I suggested... unless the enemy has access to MR-save (or very strong armor-negating) magic, it's an easy victory while really only building Black Hunters. Which other nations can do that? I don't believe you will keep your opinion after testing them, or being on the receiving end in multiplayer.

[Wick]

Gryphons don't stay after the battle. Nor do serpents, lobsters, or wolves. I can't think of anything except Giant Spiders and Hunter Spiders that do. (I'm not counting the various shapeshifters.) The others are just vengeance attacks. With Black Hunters the Hunter Spider is what you're buying.

What you're buying is almost twice the hit points of a Jotun Woodsman for 2.5 times the cost. Low strength but the poison and, especially, web makes up for it. Protection and defense are better. What you're buying is 4 times the hit points of a Knight of the Chalice while giving up 4 prot and 3 def and paying 1.39 the cost. Like any big troop they are vulnerable to masses of f9 Flagellents or Jaguar Warriors but I'd expect them to dominate an equal cost of Niefel Giants. They seem competitive.

They do tend to get afflictions since the blow that kills the rider tends to have a high damage / current HP ratio but a N9 blessing stops this.

[NTJedi]

Morkilus said:
NTJedi, do you actually find them useful when they are buffed, or would other high-protection units do just as well?

What makes the hunter spiders good is the life and above average protection, what makes the hunter spider bad is the cost.
From my experience an army taking new territories will do better spending that gold on Machaka Hoplites. Pound per pound of gold and upkeep, the Hoplites are a better investment unless you're moving into a territory with crossbowmen/longbowmen.

During ugly battles the black hunters will have a better chance of survival at the end because of their life and protection... unless you're going against lots of mages. MR is a weakness they have so have these big spiders avoid the more powerful enemy spellcasters.
From my experience they last longer then most knights and mounted units..... not the rider... the spider.