Machaka in CB

[Arralen]

It's the old problem with the gold cost, unit stats and mounts. In general, you pay somewhat for getting a mounted unit. With some units, you pay for a unit with double hitpoints (1st and 2nd form), but as you only get them one after the other, price increase isn't that big. (=> Mictlan animal warriors, Serpent Cataphracts)

But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

There's one exception, though: Jotunheims Moose Riders. Instead of 2x 8HP, they get about 45 HP - from the Moose.

So there are 2 alternatives:
Price the Black Hunters similar to other nations 2-form blessable units.
Or add a %tage of the mounts HP to the first form. E.g. a knight might get +5..+7 from the horse, the Black Hunters would get +20HP. Some mounts hitpoints might be difficult to figure out, maybe +5HP per point of size the mounted unit is bigger than the unmounted rider would be as a general rule (what would not acount for exceptionally sturdy or fragile mounts, though)

HP values might be off somewhat, I'm too lazy to look them up, and I don't know them by heart. hmmm, should I ?

[Saber Cherry]

I don't think there's a problem... have you ever tried using Black Hunters with N9 + E9, W9, or F9? They are weak against MR saves (in the default game)... and otherwise ungodly powerful.

Nothing else is similar. Hydras are not sacred, as sacred hydras require a very weak theme. So for the same gold and half the upkeep, you can pit two double-9 blessed spiders against a hydra... and you'll win.

And I could be wrong... but I thought the only mounts that stay with you after the rider dies (and after the battle ends) were Black Spiders and Gryphons. Units that fight a little then run away don't concern me.

Arralen:
But with the Black Hunters, you basically pay as if you had a 12+45HP, size 6 unit with 4 attacks and poison resistance all time long, not only after the rider dies and you're left with an afflicted spider.

They are not afflicted... the second form is pristine when the rider dies, IIRC. And with the usual nature bless, they are already poison-immune (or resistant?)


Essentially, you're approaching the 'problem' from the wrong angle. Black Hunters, like many sacred units, may be worthless without a strong bless... but strong blesses exist, so you have to compare them BLESSED. Marignon, Ulm, Man and Abysia also have units that benefit from Nature-9 blessing, but... only Black Hunters (of the four) regenerate a useful amount of health, or gain a useful amount of protection (having natural rather than metal armor). Unless countered by MR-save spells, Black Hunters / Spiders with a strong 99 bless can wipe out much more expensive armies easily. Not to mention that Spiders are upkeep-free in the base game (IIRC).

Try playing a game against some AIs on impossible, using nothing but N9F9 or N9E9 Black Hunters... and some support mages.

[halfzware]

Two quick notes:

I'm not saying that black hunters suck per say. I'm sure that with a F9 bless, in the late game, you can field 30 of them and have it be an effective force.

But if you are at a point in the game where gold still has real value to you - then black spiders simply are not worth the cost. In fact I'll make this bold statement to put things in perspective:

Spider Knights are better at cost. Even unblessed.

At 45 gold each, you can field ~14 of them for the cost of 5 black hunters. And I guarentee you 14 spider knights will win, even with F9W9. Not only would 14 spider knights beat 5 black hunters head to head but more importantly they will also do better vs a variety of units: all the way up from independants to thugs, and summons.

At worst, the black hunter is about equal to a knight, (although in a 1v1 I think the knight will probably win if it gets the first hit) so obviously they aren't that bad. What they are is: not worth their cost.

I'm not anywhere near suggesting a 20hp buff (which I think would push their cost past gold and into gems), what I'm suggesting is to raise their attack to around 14, their defense to around 14-16, their strength to 12, with a 5-20 gold cost reduction. Which at least makes their initial form effective.

But still, an E9N9 bless on a black hunter seems sorta weak. The berserk is basically guarenteeing the death of the rider, once dead E9N9 basically gives you a weak troll. So you're taking awful scales so you can afford a double 9 bless for what is effectivly 120 gold for a 50 gold knight that when dies turns into a 60 gold troll.

I can't see how thats worth while.

[Daynarr]

I agree with Saber Cherry 100%. Hunters need strong bless to be effective and worth the cost. If you put points in, for example, F9 N9 blessing they get so powerful that 125 seems cheap. The fact that mount stays after rider dies also justifies their cost. I've been playing Machaka a lot on both SP and MP (in fact they are my favorite) and always have been using black hunters to great effect. Besides, hunters are troops you will be buying in late MP game when SC's rule, and for troops that is rare occurrence.

The rest of the troops actually balance hunters even more. They are CHEAP and designed for single purpose in mind so nearly every troop (except Machaka militia) has a use and is inexpensive.

[Cainehill]

I'm also with Saber Cherry on this one. Yes, the black hunters are expensive - but I suspect that your 5 N9E9 black hunters will actually kill your 14 spider knights, halfzware. Regeneration, and better armor / strength, and they go berserk and so won't rout. Nor will they pick up afflictions as quickly as the spider knights.

In addition, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Hunter Lord. Prophetize one, and it's an instant, turn 3 thug, almost a mini-SC, and that's without even giving it anything like a charcoal shield or amulet or luck.

[Saber Cherry]

Cainehill said:
In addition, one thing that hasn't been mentioned is the Hunter Lord. Prophetize one, and it's an instant, turn 3 thug, almost a mini-SC, and that's without even giving it anything like a charcoal shield or amulet or luck.

I've never even considered that... a Bane Spider or 4-holy Voice is always too tempting. But it's an interesting idea, especially once your prophet turns into a dumb animal that can no longer share his revelations with the masses, but has 150 HP...

I can't remember ever having a riderless Hunter Lord. Does the mount still have leadership?

[halfzware]

You know what. In what might be an absolute first in the history of internet forums, I'm gonna admit I think I am wrong.

With an E9N9 bless, they really might be worth it. I always tested them with F9/somethingelse, but the protection bonus from berserk and the protection from e9 actually makes the second form useful - and make both survivable with regen.

[Ironhawk]

Cainehill said:
I'm also with Saber Cherry on this one. Yes, the black hunters are expensive - but I suspect that your 5 N9E9 black hunters will actually kill your 14 spider knights, halfzware. Regeneration, and better armor / strength, and they go berserk and so won't rout. Nor will they pick up afflictions as quickly as the spider knights.

I have to disagree with everyone who is promoting the Black Hunters as a bless platform. While I will certainly not debate that a N9E9 (or other heavy bless) spider is quite formidable, the truth is that you simply cant deploy enough of them to have an effect. In the early game, sure you will do tons of damage. But in the mid or late game? Forget it - your spiders are WAY too juicy of a target for mages not to slaughter. A handful of Magma Bolts into a formation of black hunters and - oh my!! you just lost 350gp worth of units, so sorry! Or any of the one-shot one-kill spells like Soul Slay or Paralyze? They frequently target the largest units. Not to mention that un-mounted Hunters have horrendous MR.

No, Black Hunters are just not worth it. Any benefit you might gain in the early game will rapidly erode as the game progresses. And then you will be left in mid/late game with bad scales and a blessable unit you can no longer use.

[Morkilus]

Check out all the spider-love in this thread.

[Saber Cherry]

halfzware said:
But if you are at a point in the game where gold still has real value to you - then black spiders simply are not worth the cost. In fact I'll make this bold statement to put things in perspective:

Spider Knights are better at cost. Even unblessed.

At 45 gold each, you can field ~14 of them for the cost of 5 black hunters. And I guarentee you 14 spider knights will win, even with F9W9. Not only would 14 spider knights beat 5 black hunters head to head but more importantly they will also do better vs a variety of units: all the way up from independants to thugs, and summons.

...no, sorry. That's just wrong, IMO. Ignoring the fact that the resource and upkeep costs are totally different, the Black Hunters (N9F9, not F9W9) would still win.

But still, an E9N9 bless on a black hunter seems sorta weak.

It allows a small group of them to ride over virtually all indies with no losses - at the beginning of the game, when you have no good magic spells for your mages. You're not weighting protection heavily enough in your calculations - almost nothing can hurt them!

The berserk is basically guarenteeing the death of the rider

How? I don't follow. Berserk adds protection, making them even more invulnerable, and keeping them from retreating like a small party of Spider Knights would do.

once dead E9N9 basically gives you a weak troll.

A weak troll? With more hitpoints, berserk +3, no upkeep, lethal poison, magical flaming weapons and a high attack (or reinvigoration and additional protection)? Maybe you mean "Stronger and better than a troll in every way."

So you're taking awful scales so you can afford a double 9 bless for what is effectivly 120 gold for a 50 gold knight that when dies turns into a 60 gold troll.

Well... perhaps you've never seen them used effectively. Hunter Spiders make Machaka tie with Neifelheim as the easiest nations for a total beginner to play and destroy the AI with (N9E9 bless in each case), simply because each nation has a "Ultra Power Troop".

Before deciding that they are massively underpowered, try a quick game against some AI opponents, as I suggested... unless the enemy has access to MR-save (or very strong armor-negating) magic, it's an easy victory while really only building Black Hunters. Which other nations can do that? I don't believe you will keep your opinion after testing them, or being on the receiving end in multiplayer.