SC's vs Thugs

[Boron]

Vicious Love said:
...
However, I do disagree on the point of the hydras. And a true SC should always have either the protection or the Air Shield to survive an army of unenchanted crossbowmen, even on a bad day.
...
Still, "most SCs" is not "all SCs", and I'm willing to grant that a few of the combat monsters I'd term "SCs" would still be taken down by large amounts of higher-end national troops, unless specially kitted to counter knights/jotuns/spiders/whatever. Point taken.

First i didn't want to sound know-it-all, i hope you didn't get this intention from my post .

I am personally no big fan of SCs. Problem is that you never can't design your SC to survive all possible threats.
If you give your SC e.g. an Airshield this takes away 1 important misc slot.
I said Arlabests, not X-bows . An Arlabest does 17 ap damage, a X-bow only 10.
So even with a robe of invulnerability the Arlabest should do some damage.

But what's more important and that makes me normally rather dislike SCs: The enemy will also have mage support or thugs.
If the enemy has a combination of high damage troops and anti-SC mages you can't protect vs. everything.
I am not talking about high end Mages atm but rather about average ones. If your MR is low there is e.g. paralyze.
Then there are several good elemental attacks like incinerate or lightning bolt or thunderstrike.
If your SC is undead dust to dust is dangerous.
Also some spammers of phantasmal warriors, false horrors, ghost wolves or skellis probably can't defeat an enemy SC but at least stall him till the 50 turn limit. If the SC has encumberance they can maybe even kill him.
That's all just weak stuff though.

If you take Ctis e.g. they can skelspam, relief, drain life, and bane fire with their cheap 180 gold Sauros.
That's very tough for an enemy SC.
Then if your SC has astral magic he might get mind duelled etc. .

So you have to try to design your SCs in a way that they are both good vs. mages and troops. Because SCs have a mobility advantage and can get support too they are still good but vs. humans SCs can rarely Solo, only in the early stages of the game (QMs infamous SC pretenders!).

[Folket]

Does CB increase damage of arbalests? Last I looked they did 13ap damage.

[quantum_mechani]

Folket said:
Does CB increase damage of arbalests? Last I looked they did 13ap damage.

Yes, they are now 17 damage.

[shovah]

im guessing its to make up for the lack of speed? next you'll be telling me smiths come with e2 AND f1

[Morkilus]

shovah said:
im guessing its to make up for the lack of speed? next you'll be telling me smiths come with e2 AND f1

It is relatively easy to look at the mod file itself, in a text editor, and see the changes for yourself. I believe the Readme file is still not updated from 5.0 (maybe I could do this in my "free" time...)

There is no need to be smart-***; if you don't like the mods, don't use them and don't play in multiplayer games that do. If changes concern you, look them up.

[Oversway]

There is definatley a line that keeps units, no matter how they are equipped, from performing in the SC role. Thats basically what I was trying to determine. If you have that, you can basically quickly look at a unit and determine if it could be deployed and utilized as a SC would.

This game has too much variety to have rules that easy. It depends on what you can equip, what magic you can cast, and most importantly, what armies you are facing.

[Cainehill]

Not to mention, how much you're willing to empower critters that aren't usually considered SCs. GoR a tarrasque and empower it a bit, and it certainly falls into the potential SC class. ( I did this in a game on the World map - think it had air, water and fire all at 2 or 3, making it a very big way to say "hello" by cloud trapezing it in )

[shovah]

Morkilus said:

It is relatively easy to look at the mod file itself, in a text editor, and see the changes for yourself. I believe the Readme file is still not updated from 5.0 (maybe I could do this in my "free" time...)

There is no need to be smart-***; if you don't like the mods, don't use them and don't play in multiplayer games that do. If changes concern you, look them up.

its called a joke

[Truper]

From the man who coined the terms:

apoger said:
New Classifications


A while back I coined the term Supercombatant as a description of super high power units. Over time players have started to use this term in ways that are different than the initial meaning. This has caused some frustrating conversations, and subsequent confusion. Simply put, the Dominions community needs more naming conventions so players can communicate with more precision.

Many players have started using the term Supercombatant for almost anything larger than heavy infantry. That isn't very useful since the scope of units that are more potent than heavy infantry is fairly large. As such I am now suggesting two new classifications, and redescribing the term Supercombatant.


THUG

Simply put a thug goes out and beats things up and has a reasonable chance of surviving. Thugs don't beat up high power armies, and they aren't meant to be invincible. They are meant to be cheap and efficient ways of applying a beat down.

Some examples of thugs would be:
Neifelheim Giant
Hydra
Wyrm (no/little magic)
Vanjarl - with magic weapon and casting mistform
Jotun Herse - with a few choice magic items
Troll
Lava Warrior
Knight

As you can see there is a hefty power scale fluctuation even in the thug classification. However these guys are not Supercombatants and that is what I am trying to make clear.


SLAYER

A Slayer is a unit that has been cultivated to be powerful enough to wreck conventional armies. This is really a specialized sub-class of supercombatant. The Slayer is built with cost cutting in mind, to make it as cheap as possible and still be able to disperse conventional forces. Slayers are not meant to deal with mages or magic creatures. They are used primarily as an early game expansion aid, and as attack/defense while player nations aren't fielding much magic. During the late game when potent magic is available, Slayers are usually relegated to raiding duty.


Some examples of slayers would be:

Manticore
Astral magic - 6
On entering battle it casts, Body Etheral, Personal Luck, Astral Shield, Astral Weapon, and then attacks.

Heliophagus
Wraith Sword, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Pendent of Luck, Ring of Regeneration


SUPERCOMBATANT

Supercombatants are built in an attempt to walk onto a battlefield alone and clean house versus any opposition. The potency/penetration of the spell Paralyze has made life a bit tough on Supercombatants and players of Dom2 are using more thugs and slayers than they did in Dom1. Still it's fun to use them, and they can still be effective. Just keep in mind that they are very powerful, but not invincible.


An example of a supercombatant would be:

Nataraja
Earth magic - 4
Air magic - 2
Nature magic - 3
Wraith Sword, Faithful, Charcoal Shield, Starshine Skullcap, Robe of Shadows, Boots of Quickness, Anti-Magic amulet.
On entering battle it casts, Invulnerability, Mist Form, Personal Regeneration, Elemental Fortitude, and then attacks

Supercombatant and Thug have become a permanent part of the Dominions lexicon. For some reason, Slayer never caught on.

[OG_Gleep]

From a lot of responces, an SC is not dertmined by the mob, but by the effects it has either natural or with equipment, or for the effects it CAN have via buffs?

But on the other hand, from the other threads, certain mobs are always going to be classified as Thugs, such as Banelords, no matter how they are equipped.

Out of all the possible units in the game, there must be a huge list of units that will "never be SC's", a small list that "Could be SC's", and an even smaller list that "Will always be considered an SC".

One person mentioned the 3 stats (Prot/Attack/Def). Is that where that line is drawn, at statistical markers? Does Hitpoints play a factor at all? Are there certain effects that must be present?

PS. I looked at most of the threads on the subject, but no one really defined where the line is drawn. I'm more trying to determine what column to put the various units in.