New OOB for Finland... (OBSOLETE THREAD)

[Thexder]

Warhero said:
Thanks about make it clear Zipuli. It's bit weird that Finland still have not "proper" air support for ground forces... Maybe after joining NATO in future?

I can't brag about knowing that much about Finnish army (served 4½ out of 6 months in MP company and hvy mortar company before changing to civil service) but I think it's logical in some way. One has to bear in mind that Finland only about 60 (Zipuli might know the exact number) Hornets againts hundrets of fighters our "most probable" enemy has. So in many ways it would be counterproductive to use this valuable asset for ground targets as Finland has - proportionally - stronger ground forces than air forces.

This is also linked to the failed attempt from military to acquire gunships. Maybe they thought that they would first take care of the air defense and then buy gunships to strenghten the defense against ground targets (ah, it would've been neat to use Apache's while playing with Finland). But all this is just my own speculation. I know there's many Finns in this forum that knows better.

As for NATO, I don't see Finland joining any time soon, at least not before 2010. But the truth is that the Finnish army is already compatible with NATO-standarts and when I was there many officers were certain that Finland would join. Well, that was four years ago and now we re-elected a president who is very much against NATO and the public is against joining with about 60% opposing and 25% for it.

Cheers,
Jukka

[Zipuli]

I've made some small changes to the OOB and will post it here next weekend. Changes are:

-Leo 2A4 hull armour values same as WG Leo2 and turret front received extra points against HEAT (only a few) due to the boxes Finns use in the front turret (Germans don't use)
-Leo 2A4M armour values changed to Leo 2A5 standards
-The 120 L44 Fi07 gun changed to WG96, as the Fi gun had sabot pen of 87, which is supposed to present DM53, but the ammo Finns buy (2007) is the DM33A2 (and maybe DM43). They have penetration of 68 in the game

Finns will propably not buy the DM53 round at all, because of the expences (parts in the gun need to be upgraded and the shot wears down the gun very fast compared to DM33 and 43).

Finnish air forces are only for fighting air threats (at the moment) and it has been that way after WW2.. With 64 hornets it's most likely that during chrisis they have other stuff to do than fly low to the enemy AA to fire off few rockets and drop some bombs

MLRS was quite cheap to Finns as the system was bought used from Holland (22 launcher vehicles ~40 million euros).

When testing the SPA the army of course wanted to buy them, but no money-no funny. The system (if bought new as the plan was) would have been really heavy moneywise, so the 155mm K98 was bought instead. Of course Finns still have a number of 2S1s and 2S5s, but the new SPA was to be used with the Brig 05s, the old russian ones are used with the armoured brigs and the new mech battlegroups(?). At least the AMOS could be bought!

Someone may think after reading these posts that FDF has always moneyproblems... well, it is that way! Compromises must be made.

But anyway, till next weekend!

Zip

[Zipuli]

Sorry I am unable to upload the file now... I'll get to it ASAP!

Zip

[Jaska]

> Finns will propably not buy the DM53 round at all, because of the expences

So we were too cheap to buy proper ammo for the big cats? Not much of a surprise there really.

The finnish arms deals tend to repeat the same pattern. Generals ask for some big guns. Politicins buy a toned down version. Maybe 20% of the money is saved but some 80% of the punch is lost...

Anyhow that pretty much explains why I lost four Finnish Leo2A4's to a single T-80UM just yesterday. Propably some really bad luck and certaily lots of arrogance on my side involved, but inferior ammo explains a lot too:

I had a platoon of Leopards advancing in column when suddenly a lone Russian T-80 drove out of forest accross a large clearing. Russian tanks do not usually travel alone so I immediately ordered a FASCAM bombardment near there just in case there is more of those coming. Then a shooting gallery like 4-on-1 strugle between the tanks begun. Even after half a dozen non penetrating hits I was feeling victorious - thinking that the Russian tank crew must be spoiling their pants receiving hits from four MBTs just 800-1000m away. Instead they blew up 2 of my tanks when they got to shoot back! Was not feeling invincible anymore but wondering how many ERA blocks that tank could possible have remaining after all the pounding I was giving to it. Well eventually I got the T-80 destroyed by retargetting the FASCAM barrage over there - but only after I had lost all my tanks...

Maybe we should grant the uranium mining license to Areva after all but only if they promise to sell the depleted uranium to Patria... They propably have the know how to produce competent penetrators already if the raw material and political will was there ;-)

ps. this happened in winSPMBT 3.0 standard OOB - playing around with that one a bit before reinstalling the excellent MOD OOB

[pdoktar]

Well I think that DU rounds will not ever be made or used by finnish forces. However Patria or vammas or whoever should have significant ballistic knowhow to manufacture a homemade sabot for the rheinmetall gun. Then again, the army still needs the money to buy such things..

Today it was said that by 2008 we have 22 working MLRS systems, so maybe they got it right this time? They were quite cheap, some 50 million euros for all of them.

And watch out for those T80UMs, theyre not plastic toys with K-5.

[Zipuli]

"So we were too cheap to buy proper ammo for the big cats? Not much of a surprise there really."

Well, it's not just the round that costs, but with DM53 you need to change few parts in the gun shock mechanism to avoid breaking up the whole thing when firing (€€). Also with DM33 the gun (barrel) itself can fire (if I remember correctly) some 1500 rounds and with DM53 it was just some 100 before you need to change a new barrel. Guess how many spare barrels we have.

pdoktar,

About the MLRS I wouldn't say they got it right. They only have AT-2 ammunition (scatterable antitank mines) and practice rounds. We didn't buy ICM ammo (well we did but they were converted into practice ammo if I remember correctly) to them because some of the grenades will be left duds, and that naturally is humanitarian risk. So now we have a really good MLRS system, but no real ammo for them. Remember how MLRS along with Hornet's AG weapons was supposed to replace AP landmines (iskukykytutkimus)? So now we have system that fires scatterable mines, we don't have the bad bad ICM ammo, nor do we have Hornet AG weapons because USA wouldn't sell us (yet). The funny thing is that all our landmines are safe in stores and when used they are marked really accurately on... miinoiteseloste (few meters accuracy at least). But with AT-2 you really can't say where the mines went. And guess how much damage you will do with full salvo of AT-2 mines to say against SP Howitzer Battalion?

Well, around 2015 there are plans to buy artillery missiles (ATACMS) for MLRS, so that boosts the range, but the damage done is still nothing like the ICM ammo. And few days ago it was said (by few top politicians) that the ICM ammo is important part of the MLRS system. We will get one when they can confirm 0% duds when fired. Guess when that'll be?

Zip

[pdoktar]

But just now they´re talking about buying ICM to MLRS, and those would be brought from the netherlands, where they bought the system itself. These ICM munitions should be second-generation, self-destroying thingies. They have the launchers, but those rockets are due to arrive in 2008 (are those then the ICM rockets, I don´t know).

Down with cluster munitions, let there be peace.

[Zipuli]

This from www.mil.fi:

"Puolustusvoimat vakuuttaa ettei Suomeen hankita kyseisiä ammuksia. Selvityksen alla ovat uudentyyppiset rypälepommit, jotka ovat aiempaa vaarattomampia räjähtämättöminä."

The new kind of ICM they're talking about doesn't exist yet.

More:

"M270-heitin ampuu MLRS-ampumatarvikeperheen (MFOM, MLRS Family Of Munition) raketteja ja tykistöohjuksia, joita ovat mm.
- M26 kuormaraketti, 32 km, 644 tytärammusta
- M26A1/A2 (ERR) pitkän kantaman kuormaraketti, 45 km

-> these two are the basic ammo used by most users... the bad bad ICM

- M28 harjoitusraketti, perustuu M26-rakenteeseen (hankitaan Suomelle)

-> THE ONE I WAS TALKING ABOUT

- M28A1 RRPR lyhyen kantaman harjoitusraketti
- AT2 miinaraketti, 38 km, 28 miinaa/raketti (hankitaan Suomelle)

-> this is the one you mentioned to be fielded 2008!!!!

- M30 GMLRS ohjautuva raketti, 60—100 km, esisarjatuotannossa (!!), useita hyötykuormavaihtoehtoja (hankintaa Suomelle tutkitaan)
- ATACMS ohjus, 165—330 km, tytärammuksia tai muita hyötykuormia hyötykuormavaihtoehtoja (hankintaa Suomelle tutkitaan)"

-> With the last 2 there's no such thing as "second-generation, self-destroying thingies" yet, but I guess pressure on making them possible is quite high. And so would be the cost to buy them! Guess when we have the money for those? Hoping the best, fearing the worst...

Zip