Oblivion

[Gandalf Parker]

Diablo II is one that I enjoyed enough that I would enjoy it just as much if they redid it and offered it with no changes other than new maps. And even if they only worked in local mode.

As for the thing about usual keypresses not working, thats usually a sign that its being written for another platform.

[OG_Gleep]

Diablo falls into the Action RPG category, which can't be compared to traditional RPGs like Baldurs Gate and Oblivion.

And a MMO is inherently different then a offline RPG. MMO's can make design choices that aren't feasible in a offline RPG and vise versa.

I never did play Wizardry 8, so have no experience to respond from. But it sounds like you are more into the action/strategy RPGs then traditional crpgs. I enjoy all three, but trying to compare them because they share three letters may be where your going wrong. Most people lump them into the same category but imho they are three sperate genres.

Shining Force - Fire Emblem - Buck Rogers - Final Fantasy Tactics - Fallout Tactics

Diablo - Dungeon Seige - Xmen - Untold Legends - Never Winter Nights

Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

While comparisions work within the grouping, they just don't work once you start trying to compare them to games outside their genre. I think its a crying shame that games like Ground Control are compared to Warcraft. Take resource gathering/base building out of an RTS and its not a RTS anymore.

The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame. I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest. Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game....my play time will likely end when this character does.

So for me, its dissapointing that my main incentive to dungeon romp is about to dissapear. Yes mods are an option, but I'm not a graphic wiz, and I hate mods that use my old armor graphics, to "represent" something totally new.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Have mods with new graphics even come out yet? Most of the mods I have tried have been cosmetic or tweaks of some kind.

BTW if you haven't tried it, BTMod is awesome. They zoomed out the interface a bit...the inventory has 15 lines now instead of 6 for example. They changed almost every gui/interface related screen in some way. The map is zoomed out, which I like a lot better. Theres also a "pre-configured" options package available that provides screenshots of the different options, and instructions on how to install the files. The only complaint I had was the actual inventory screen..it was a little too small for me, so I had someone switch it to 10 lines, which is perfect. If anyone wants the file let me know.

[Saber Cherry]

OG_Gleep said:
The complaint I have about Oblivion, and I had about Morrowind is that the ceiling is way too low as far as loot and monster tables are concered. I don't think they added any new armor or weapon types in Oblivion and that is just a shame.

No... but they did remove quite a few (spears, staves, crossbows, thrown) so at least it's not the same

I hit the "highest" weapon and armor options way before I was even close to being done with my character development. I am level 23 now, and should have a full suit of the top teir heavy armor soon, and have the best stock weapon available.

This is a terrible shame, and something I didn't expect at all! Fortunately, it is something that can be resolved by modders, since it's not an engine limitation. But having all the best gear early in the game would really bite. To me, it's similar to (but the inverse of) Blizzard's philosophy for World of Warcraft - expand the game by adding more content for level 60 characters, but never actually allow anyone to go beyond level 60. If I'm not improving my character by doing anything, it takes away incentive to do anything... but if you ever find a really cool item before level 60, chances are that you won't be allowed to use it until you're high enough in level that it's no longer cool. Like, say, until level 60.

Whether Diablo II is an action-RPG is irrelevant. It has a great system of item drops, that I wish more games would emulate - almost any piece of equipment you find can have random attributes, and (provided you're in a high-enough level area) there's always a chance of finding some awesome item that totally outclasses whatever you used before. And there were all kinds of effects, too, so it wasn't simply "Sword of +X" like in many games. Plus the gems (and runes, which I never used, as I had no exp. pack) allowed you to customize items...

Then WoW came along, with a completely inferior and boring item system. In perhaps the dumbest moment of Blizzard game design ever, they even decided that all equipment bought in stores should be incomparably worse than the crappiest things (at a similar level) you can find, yet be priced roughly 10x as much. So, nobody ever buys anything non-disposable from stores after about level 5.

For me, part of the fun of RPGs (both on and offline) is getting new "stuff". I love getting loot, looking in every container possible, and don't mind making multipe trips back to town just to make sure I got everything worthwhile. But with so few options, I will reach the ceiling for both weapons and armor in a couple more dungeon romps.....and I'm have only done the very first steps in Main quest.

Agreed, and disappointing.

Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game...

What? You've mastered every skill by level 23? Or am I misunderstanding something... since I thought you had to master a skill before you could unlock the top abilities.

Also, for such a big game, the monster table is surprisingly small. They should have had more "stuff" so that combat and exploring stay interesting as long as possible.

Also sad to hear. Monster mods with extra monsters tend to be horribly unbalanced, and they take way more work than equipment mods, too...

[OG_Gleep]

Saber Cherry said:

No... but they did remove quite a few (spears, staves, crossbows, thrown) so at least it's not the same

Hehe was more reffering to the material rather then the weapon itself "Iron Longsword" "Steel Longsword" etc.

Honestly its been so long, I didn't even notice those were missing. There should atleast be 3-4 more material types...at the minimum. I actually skipped glass entirely. I went from Dwarvish to Ebony. Haven't even seen a Glass Long/Short Sword. Have found plenty of daggers though.

If I'm not improving my character by doing anything, it takes away incentive to do anything... but if you ever find a really cool item before level 60, chances are that you won't be allowed to use it until you're high enough in level that it's no longer cool. Like, say, until level 60.

In a online game, I am actually driven to hit the cap so I can get on with the "cool stuff". That part doesn't bother me. But your right that something has to drive me. The cool stuff has to be there, be it uber loot, or PvP bonuses (Dark Age of Camelot, and now WoW). In SP games, the journey is exciting, from level 1 to level x. Instead of getting access to it in chunks ala Online games, in SP games it has to be rationed. Feels like I blew my wad a little too early.

Whether Diablo II is an action-RPG is irrelevant. It has a great system of item drops, that I wish more games would emulate....Then WoW came along, with a completely inferior and boring item system.....So, nobody ever buys anything non-disposable from stores after about level 5.

Ah but see, you made my point for me. It isn't irrelevant. While on paper Action, Strategy, Online, and Traditional RPGs might look smiliar the overall goals are different which defines what choices the developers make. In WoW, having a vibrant economy was important, in Diablo...making sure a player based economy flourishes wasn't a factor. Thats why you see a Diablo type item system in a lot of Action RPGs, and why its absent from MMO's. And want to ensure that an economy never sees the light of day? Make NPC Vendor equipment a viable choice for the player.

I agree with you 100% that for Action RPGs, there is no better loot system then Diablo's. But theres a reason its not the standard loot system for all RPG's.

The main flaw with the WoW system is it allows Ninja looters. That was my only complaint. Actually I was really impressed overall. The choices Blizzard made allowed the economy to be up, functional, and flourishing during the beta. Other games can't get one up years after going live.

Because I have access to every available skill, theres not much incentive for me to replay the game...

Saber Cherry said:What? You've mastered every skill by level 23? Or am I misunderstanding something... since I thought you had to master a skill before you could unlock the top abilities.

Hehe no, I ment that the choices I made during character creation really only effected what level my skills were when I started, not which skills I had access to. You aren't denied access to anything actually. Pure Warriors can join the mage guild, Pure Mages can join the warriors guild. Theres no real incentive for me to do this all over again. If I play a Thief for instance, I'll still pick locks, I'll just do it better then my sword loving-heavy armor-potion chugging-hardly ever use magic Mage.

Also sad to hear. Monster mods with extra monsters tend to be horribly unbalanced, and they take way more work than equipment mods, too...

Hehe we have been on opposite sides of this thread since the first day, but after all this I feel like I gave you more ammo to hate the game .

This game is far from perfect, but I do feel I've gotten my $50 (or whatever it was) worth of entertainment. And thats all anyone can ask for.

[alexti]

OG_Gleep said:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment - Pools of Radience - Oblivion - Wizardy - Ultima

Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

[Endoperez]

OG_Gleep, there's one thing I don't quite get. If I understood it correctly, you are saying that if Diablo had had a good plot, and thus had been a plot-based RPG, it should have used an inferior battle/loot system. Why?

Battles should be fun even in plot-based games, and better, unique random items could easily be given as quest awards instead of items the boss drops.

[OG_Gleep]

alexti said:
Not sure about such grouping, it seems that only kitchen sink is missing here. I would rather put them:
Baldurs Gate - PlanetScape Torment
Pools of Radience - Wizardy
Oblivion - Ultima

I think I understand what you were saying, but I don't understand why. What sub genres do they represent?

Other good examples of RPG that allowed you to go pretty much anywhere you want are Star Control 2, Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

I never considered Star Control a Role Playing Game, and didn't know anyone else did either. I did a search for Star Control and Genre and it popped up a bunch of different things, including Roleplaying.
Honestly if it were released today I doubt it would be called a RPG at all. Now all types of games have "RPG elements".

Most non-linear games offer varying degrees of freedom in picking your own path through the game. Within the confines offline CRPG's I couldn't think of a example as she listed it. I don't remember Betryal of Krondor really well, but I don't think it fits her description, and I never played past Wizardry III (Might have been 2).

[Endoperez]

Betrayal at Krondor had one plot, one "main quest" that advanced the story and might give you access to new areas. But instead of e.g. going straight to Krondor in he first chapter, you could wander around and do sub-quests. When I played it, I didn't get very far in the main plot, but completed many of the sub-quests, and had just awesome equipment for my characters.

In Star Control 2, there was a similar mainplot, but it was advanced more often by discussing with other races and then completing the sub-quests that by simply collecting resources and buying stuff, although buying information could help a lot. But you could go around, to any planet, try and contact all races you wanted, fight sny races you wanted, etc. You could disregard the plot, but of course wouldn't be able to complete it - especially as the plot for once could advance even without player doing anything.

(If you think Diablo is NOT a role-playing game, despite the mechanical similarities, then a game that underlines discussion, strong plot and even rises some moral questions should be dubbed an RPG - even if the mechanics are totally different. But Star Control 2 (anotherSC?!) usn't really the point of this discussion.)

I think that's pretty similar to Oblivion, actually. You have a main quest, which you eventually want to complete, but you can wander around and enjoy the many subquests and the many areas which are optional - at least at this point in the game.

[OG_Gleep]

I don't know if its me or you but you seem to be taking everything I have been saying too far to the right and out of context.

A crappy plot didn't make diablo an Action-RPG. Its gameplay did (An action game with RPG elements). Just like a crappy battle or loot system doesn't make a rpg "traditional".

The context of what I was saying was SC comparing Diablo to WoW, and my point was thats not a fair comparison to make, as they are two totally different games types, with different core goals that decisions are based off of.

Its like trying to compare apples and oranges because they are both fruit, or they both grow. Its possible, but not exactly fair.

I am currently not happy with the loot table in oblivion, not the system. The system is perfectly fine, and the problem would be remidied with more options.

[PrinzMegaherz]

Talking about Star Control does not aid this discussion either. The topic was whether Oblivion's skill system is broken, and Star Control has no skill system at all. You sure can improve your precursor battleship, but I think most people fight the battles with normal ships instead of the flagship.

However, if we speak about broken game mechanics, Star Control 2 would be another nice example. I completed the whole game using only the Spathi Eluder, and the AI has no way to handle the "fly away and launch torpedos backwards" strategy.

Anyway, Diablo 2 had one of the worst skill systems out there. The game punished you for taking basic skills because the points spent there were useless against later enemies and they did not have an effect on more advanced skills. This lead to people saving their skill points through the whole game until the better skills came available - I just remember my necromancer having 20 points on bone spear and 20 points on the reviving spell (forgot the name) + Iron maiden. Everything else had only a one just for the sake of getting the better spells. If someone, for example, would have spent 20 points into the first shooting spell, he would have had a hard time in the later game, because the spell would suck (dealing no reasonable damage), and having fewer points to distribute on the better spells - very boring.