SE 4 Gold

[c_of_red]

Imperator Fyron said:
25% cost hike? Yikes. I doubt it would be anywhere near that significant just to make it more shapely... Maybe 2.5%.

This was scary, sort of.
Either you have zero understanding of 4X games or SEIV will end up being another box on the shelf where I keep bogus games. I hope not.
Let me try once to explain. The actual percentage is meaningless. All it (the percentage) does is affect the time factor (t) in the equation.
If you own a widget shop, and I own a widget shop across the street and I have ANY sort of efficeny advantage over you while all other factors are equal, you have a chapter 11 in your future. The difference between 2.5 percent and 25 percent is the time it takes to achieve dominance.
If the game doesn't relect this then It is worth the hard drive space it will take up.
I got the game Saturday and I'll load it tommorrow, so we will see.

[c_of_red]

So the Mod thingy allows players to play god and design a universe run by their own laws of Physics, if I got it right. Does that include the Laws of Economics and Politics as well?
I mean 4X is called 4X for a reason. Physics applies to eXplore and eXterminate mostly, but eXpand is mainly the Economic portion and eXploit is the Political aspect of a 4X game. Not that there is a distinct line between the seperate functions.
While the Laws of Economics and Politics are not as well explored as the Laws of Physics, they are just as immutable.
Any way, I got the CD and I'll start on this tommorrow and I'll know by the weekend.
In 1899 the director of the US patent office recommended shutting dwon the Patent office because everything that could be invented already had been and no new inventions were possible.

[Suicide Junkie]

A 25% advantage is unbeatable.

A 2.5% advantage can be overcome by tactics, strategy and even some luck.


PS:
Charging more for aesthetics is a very lame idea. Looks are completely irrelevant.

[Fyron]

Modding allows one to change many aspects of the game, from what facilites do, to the components you can use, to the types of planets and systems on the map. Check out Data folder.

=0=

2.5% isn't even a strategically relevant advantage. Resource production being equal, that means you can support 102 ships for every 100 (of the exact same tech level and configuration) that the enemy can. If that is all that is determining victory, there is not much of a game at hand.

I'd love to see the business that goes into bankruptcy for no reason other than a 2.5% cost of production disadvantage against its competitors... such a trivial difference is easily overcome by other factors, such as brand, functionality, and marketing (marketing is the bulk of business success in the first place).

[Suicide Junkie]

For an Empirical Example, see the attachment.

Consider the following:
- This is early endgame, with max-tech, but plenty of old ships still around.
- The blue-grey Pandorans had 400 ships and carriers.
- The yellow Nausea Heap had 300 ships and carriers.
- The two forces started at point blank range, with lots of fringe placement.
- The Pandorans got the first shot.
- The pandorans lost more ships, and averaged about 65% damage on their surviving ships.
- The heap lost a couple ships, and averaged about 65% damage on their survivors too.


Pandorans had:
- A 30% numbers advantage.
- First shot from point blank.

The Heap had:
- Slightly better strategies.
- Position (attacked in a pincer move, pinning the Pandorans in a small area near the warppoint)
- Better fighter deployment (smaller stacks - 5 vs 15)
- Transports with spare fighters to restock the carriers.
- Supply tankers to restock the missile ships.

If the Pandorans had only a 2.5% numbers advantage, they would have been wiped out already.
Instead, with a 30% advantage, they have just had half their navy taken out of commission.


The "Schooling":
Nature's way of reminding you that a 25% advantage is not unbeatable.

[c_of_red]

One battle does not a war make.
I am picking up the recommended patchs and will start soon on learning the game. 4X games are mostly economic. I see youse guys are all focusing on the shooting part. In any 4X game I've ever tried, the less shooting , the better. War is wastefull and to be avoided whenever possible. If you had used your 2.5% advantage over the course of the whole game, it would have been 4,000 to 300. Ever hear the term "Compound Interest"? The Main reason I'm ditching MOO3 is that if you build your empire thru skullduggery, deceit and bribery, as an empire should be built, the Program drops as many ships as needed on you to destroy your empire.
You are looking at the trees and not seeing the forest.

[douglas]

c_of_red said:Ever hear the term "Compound Interest"?

Yes. How, exactly, does this 2.5% advantage make use of that mechanic? 2.5% cheaper ships translates directly to 2.5% more ships for the same cost. I don't have the slightest clue how this advantage might compound without being used in combat, so when the first battles happen it will still be a mere 2.5%. SJ has posted proof that even a 30% advantage can be overcome by other factors, at least in his mod, and I sincerely doubt any real-world historical battle was decided by a numerical advantage that small. Yes, if everything else is exactly equal, then that 2.5% difference may decide the victor. The odds of that ever actually happening are so tiny as to be practically nonexistent.

c_of_red said:The Main reason I'm ditching MOO3 is that if you build your empire thru skullduggery, deceit and bribery, as an empire should be built, the Program drops as many ships as needed on you to destroy your empire.
You are looking at the trees and not seeing the forest.

I agree with you that MoO3 is a bad game. Your opinion of how an empire "should" be built, however, is just that - an opinion. An empire forged through deceit, political maneuvering, etc. WILL eventually have to back it up with force unless its maneuvering and deceit is truly SPECTACULARLY well done, preferably accompanied by copious amounts of luck.

[Fyron]

You are aware that you pay maintenance on ships? And that 2.5% cost difference never provides any build time difference (simply remove a cheap component and add it in retrofit while training the ship if you can save an entire turn by it)?