German Biased?

[Charles22]

PatG said:

Look up the 8th route army. As for the rest of the wimpy Chinese, even after 15 years of warfare, only 4 of which involved the Americans and Allies, Japan never conquered China.

I meant wimpy in terms of their equipment and ratings in WinSPWW2. Surely you will agree that their in-game army is much weaker than the in-game armies for GB and the USA for example?

[PatG]

Charles22 said:
<snip>
I meant wimpy in terms of their equipment and ratings in WinSPWW2. Surely you will agree that their in-game army is much weaker than the in-game armies for GB and the USA for example?

Fair enough about the equipment and ratings.

As for comparison of any in-game army against another, I have to disagree - with some caveats.

Above the tactical level, the game operates on the basis of "all other things being equal" - this ensures the player enjoys the game. We see this in the points ratios and the fully topped up formations and amount of rare kit we can purchase (though some attempts have been made to compensate e.g. Japanese home defense tank units). While Chinese equipment is not nearly as good as that of some other armies, you can buy a lot of it. As Uncle Joe said: "Quantity has a quality of it's own". The numbers for quality trade-off can fail (spectacularly in SPMBT with M1 vs T72) but these failures can often be resolved through thoughtful force selection and tactics.

What we don't see is the ability of American or British mechanized forces to punch through CCP lines and push deep into their rear areas nor do we see the effects of local villagers supporting CCP forces through information, logistics and guerilla support.

My second caveat would be about terrain. Chinese vs US over open ground is one thing, in close terrain it could be quite different. As I mentioned in a PM, I ran tests showing that in close terrain, Japanese infantry without specialized AT can hold their own against American combined arms or tank forces.

The game starts with all other things being equal, our job as commanders is to make sure they don't stay that way.

[Charles22]

Well sure, but I'm playing primarily from the German POV no matter what side I play and the Chinese are WAY bad in that department. Heck, what infantry isn't good in jungles against AFV's? I gave Japan that concession by mention of the ol' satchel charges on the the back routine (but I don't believe in fighting that way - suicide). It's just that I don't really consider that warfare, and really confined quarters where the Chinese or Japanese might hold their own against tanks or combined arms, though it does happen in warfare, is just a bore to me, because any ol' schmo can do it. Of course the worst thing is that there never is such thing as the advancing unit getting next to the defender undetected, such that the attacker might attack first for a change. No, the defender has to have multiple 'targets' thrown against it in the same turn, such that it runs out of shots, then that 6th or 7th target has a chance to 'start' attacking the defender (I realize the attacker 'can' shoot after the defender attacks him, should he rally and have shots left himself). I realize that's a part of the system that can't be helped, but you can see plainly how the Japanese, and worse yet the Chinese are very inadequate at stopping medium AFV's beyond range 1. Seems there ought to be times where the attacker gets the first crack, even if he is an AFV (though much less likely) or the first infantry going in. Maybe a 100 experienced commando should be able to move and attack before a 45 experienced Chinese infantry notices him at times?

[Smersh]

sounds like problems from the other tread about casualties at 50m, and fighting in built up terrian.

[Charles22]

Yeah, somehow I got it mixed up.

[narwan]

Well Charles, that also depends on how you move. Move just 1 hex per turn with infantry and your sneaking. Move more than 1 hex and you're not. Your chances of getting spotted rise drastically. And you do have to sneak all the way to your target, at least the part that MAY be under enemy observation. Get spotted once along the way and you'll stay spotted.

Narwan

[Charles22]

Oh yeah, I kind of forgot about that, but it seems in thick woods (realizing now this is the wrong thread) that they always react even if it is just a move of one hex. Maybe I just haven't been enough in that specific situation to know the precise deal in this version yet.

[Charles22]

No, sorry, I think that was for this thread, as I wasn't talking to PatG in that one, and though it's related I couldn't find anything that it looked like I was responding to there. I was repsonding to PatG's last response here it would appear.

[PatG]

Charles22 said:
Well sure, but I'm playing primarily from the German POV no matter what side I play and the Chinese are WAY bad in that department.

Ah - We're comparing apples and oranges then.

Heck, what infantry isn't good in jungles against AFV's? I gave Japan that concession by mention of the ol' satchel charges on the the back routine (but I don't believe in fighting that way - suicide). It's just that I don't really consider that warfare, and really confined quarters where the Chinese or Japanese might hold their own against tanks or combined arms, though it does happen in warfare, is just a bore to me, because any ol' schmo can do it. <snip>

Interesting - I have come to find sniping T-34's with 88s and long 75s something of a bore because any ol' schmo can do that too.

I guess all this discussion proves is the excellence of the SP series and the work the developers have put into it - we can both schmo along happily.

[Charles22]

What I meant about German POV, is that I'm trying to eliminate units in most cases as the furtherest distance possible, such that fighting in jungle conditions would allow very little if any of that. I have had some excellent games, though, when I campaigned some as the USSR and ran into Finnish hordes attacks. The only thing bad about it (it wasn't this version) was that I had the hisghest losses I may had ever had in a battle, about half of the units.

BTW, when I say 'any ol'schmo' I'm referring that close-quarter fighting brings out hits at such a frequent rate that even the nations with the shoddiest equipment don't have too much trouble being a major nuisance. It's the distance fighting of 15+ hex fighting (excepting infantry) that brings up the difference in those with poor or excellent equipment.