Bar vs FG42 is it a draw?

[narwan]

Tarrif said:
[Based on the numbers I've seen, it's values for use as an automatic rifle are far below what they should be - using other automatic rifles (namely the B.A.R.) to set the standard.

Not other automatic rifles, plural, but singular, only the BAR. Which is also a different category weapon (which difference has its own in game effects). If you want a valid comparison line the FG42 up with bolt action rifles, the M1 Garand (weapon 112 in the US OB), STG44's (weapon 153 in the GE OB), Gewehr 41 (weapon 162), Gewehr 43 (weapon 163) and see how they come off. These are all primairy weapons as is the FG42. You may also want to check some numbers in WinSPMBT as there are plenty of automatic primairy infantry weapons there.
I'm not saying these are all the same sort off weapon, but the do show the scaling of modeling primairy infantry weapons from bolt action to semi auto to full auto in the game.


Narwan

[Tarrif]

Then I guess the problem is that the game interprets the FG-42 as a general issue rifle in the first place. The FG-42 was not designed to be anything like the M1 Garand, STG44, or Gewehr 43. It was designed from the outset to be a light-weight automatic rifle / light machinegun that could add some punch to the firepower of airborne forces. Its a specialized weapons designed for parachutists.

If you want a comparison, the only ones I can think of are the various carbines specifically designed for those purposes. Perhaps the American M1A1 Paratrooper Carbine. I understand the game might interpret things differently, and I guess that the problem, because the game is wrong in that respect. The FG-42 should not be in the same class as the M1 Garand or Gewehr 43. It should be in the same class as whatever the B.A.R. is in, and have stats similar or slightly better than it.

[Marek_Tucan]

IMHO the best comparison to FG-42 would be Soviet AVS-36 7.62mm full-power automatic rifle - also manufactured in rather small qantities, given to elite units, hard to control in autofire... Later replaced by similar, but just self-loading SVT-38/40 rifle. All sources I've seen claim FG to be intended as primary automatic weapon (ie rifle), manufactured in low quantities and used by crack units as rifle. Yup, there were just 7000 pieces but how many German paratroopers was there? And if you give those 7000 pieces to 7000 men in one unit it would act as a primary weapon (which it did AFAIK, those 7k pieces weren't spread thin in the entire FJ corps as would the SAW role suggest, rather they were concentrated in chosen units.)

Just my 2 cents

[TheDesertFox]

Tarrif said:
The FG-42 was not designed to be anything like the M1 Garand, STG44, or Gewehr 43.

Beg your pardon but where do you get this wrong information from ?

The FG42 was designed to replace the 98K and the MP40 in the paratroops, basing on the negative experiences in the west and Crete. It never was designed to act as a SAW. The germans had better weapons for that purpose.

cheers

[Tarrif]

TheDesertFox said:
Beg your pardon but where do you get this wrong information from?

Almost every single book I have with the FG-42 in it says it was a weapon, designed from the very beginning, for paratrooper use. The emphasis was on being light-weight and compact, while trying to cram as much firepower as possible into those restrictions. The Garand and other rifles were designed to specifications of a much different priority. A better comparison for the FG-42 would be other weapons designed or modified for paratrooper use, such as the M1A1 Paratrooper Carbine I mentioned earlier (although those two weapons are in a different sub-class).

[TheDesertFox]

Tarrif said:
The emphasis was on being light-weight and compact, while trying to cram as much firepower as possible into those restrictions.

Tarrif, to make a long story short:

Was it designed to replace the Riflemens weapon(s) or was it designed to replace the LMG-Gunners weapon ?

What do your sources say ?

cheers

[Tarrif]

It was designed to provide firepower along the lines of a LMG but the accuracy of a rifle. For units like paratroopers, weapons were sometimes designed under the jack-of-all-trades principle. It was never meant to totally replace the rifle or the LMG - especially since it was complicated and expensive to produce. Had the FG-42 been quick and easy to produce, its possible it would have become the primary weapon of the Fallschrimjaegers, but that wasn't the case, so only one or two men per squad recieved them and they were used to augment the firepower of the squad.

[TheDesertFox]

Tarrif said:
It was designed to provide firepower along the lines of a LMG but the accuracy of a rifle. For units like paratroopers, weapons were sometimes designed under the jack-of-all-trades principle. It was never meant to totally replace the rifle or the LMG - especially since it was complicated and expensive to produce. Had the FG-42 been quick and easy to produce, its possible it would have become the primary weapon of the Fallschrimjaegers, but that wasn't the case, so only one or two men per squad recieved them and they were used to augment the firepower of the squad.

Tarrif,

thanks for your answer. In game terms this means it is used as a riflemens weapon (primary weapon) and not as a LMG (secondary weapon). That´s how things are represented in the game right now.

I just wanted this to be clear.

cheers

[narwan]

Tarrif said:
It was designed to provide firepower along the lines of a LMG but the accuracy of a rifle.

It's accuracy in the game is like that of rifles and its firepower (HE kill factor) is closer to that of lmg's. So that would make it about right as it currently is doesn't it?

Narwan