Artillery

[Marek_Tucan]

Back on topic, just played a Germany vs. Czechoslovakia meeting in 1938, with rather huge forces on a 60x60 map. My enemy didn't use his arty properly but my 105mm and 75mm guns as well as 75mm mortars were blazing away rather permanently... And I haven't noticed any problems with too much kills. IIRC the arty destryed one vz.33 tankette and two armoured cars, the rest of Czechoslovakian tank force fell prey to my 88's and Panzers. So I don't think the light arty is as dreadful killer as someone here suggested.

EDIT: against soft vehicles it was a completely different matter, as it should be. His motor inf. in trucks got slaughtered, esp. as he moved them in tight groups - one of such groups got almost completely destroyed in one turn by splash damage of Panzer IV's 75mm shells.

[Charles22]

Marek_Tucan said:
Back on topic, just played a Germany vs. Czechoslovakia meeting in 1938, with rather huge forces on a 60x60 map. My enemy didn't use his arty properly but my 105mm and 75mm guns as well as 75mm mortars were blazing away rather permanently... And I haven't noticed any problems with too much kills. IIRC the arty destryed one vz.33 tankette and two armoured cars, the rest of Czechoslovakian tank force fell prey to my 88's and Panzers. So I don't think the light arty is as dreadful killer as someone here suggested.

EDIT: against soft vehicles it was a completely different matter, as it should be. His motor inf. in trucks got slaughtered, esp. as he moved them in tight groups - one of such groups got almost completely destroyed in one turn by splash damage of Panzer IV's 75mm shells.

I think you get results more indicative of what we have been talking about if it is 'your' AFV's that are being bombarded. Try bunching up maybe 15-20 at various places on a road, and let him see you and blaze away, and see what happens. If all you got was 3 AFV's then you either weren't bombarding where they were, or he basically didn't have very many. Try what I said and just out of that one group, 75mm's alone will do in twice what you saw in your game. I had about 35-40 tanks altogether and probably lost 6 of them to those mere 75's in that type of situation I described (not to count all the SPAA's, HT's, and AC's those things killed). I think I only had one HT out of all of that which survived with a track hit, as most of the hits were either bounces or kills. I was playing the Germans as the assaulting side BTW and I had to slow my attack down more than I would have liked due to the likelihood of mines in the vicinity. He didn't need mines when 75's hit like that and I got that salvo for approximately 2-3 turns before it died out for some reason.

His side (Polish) had either 12 or 16 75mmm guns. Not s great deal by any means. At least half of those were onboard or I would had really been in trouble.

[Marek_Tucan]

Charles22 said:
If all you got was 3 AFV's then you either weren't bombarding where they were, or he basically didn't have very many.

In that specific place he had circa 6 LT-35's and three vz.33's in one spot, in neighboring hexes. Got two 75mm and one 105mm battery on him for about 6 turns and got just that one tankette. The two armoured cars were on a different spot, both got by one 75mm battery salvo.
Oh damn me! Totally forgot to mention we got the Arm toughness set to 150% (my preferred setting). So maybe that was the cause.

[Charles22]

It's good you caught that. Another primary difference also: you were bombarding with very little over a more extended period, at least compared to what happened to me. I had like 12-16 guns bearing down for three straight turns. The only thing that saved several of them was that they routed out of the bombardment zone.

[snake]

Well, I caught about 20 French R35's and H39's moving in a clear space - slowed them with a few AT rifles and rained artillery (about 9 105's) on them for three turns. Nothing left but one immobilized and one running.
Very unrealistic IMHO but I believe the problem is that every tank in every blast radius gets checked for a top hit when a top hit check should only occur if the original round hits the tank (MUCH LESS LIKELY!) The blasts should cause disruption and a few immobilizations but instead you should hear the number of hits!
This needs to be fixed!
In every instance where I defend or delay, the AI buys 20-30 artillery units and my armor just gets slaughtered.
In one case, I lost 12 units to 4 75mm and 1 150mm blast area (one time) all from top hits when the rounds clearly did not 'hit' the tanks (the little smoke spots were never ON an AFV but near them).
Please fix this! A top hit check should only be made if the round actually hits the hex with the vehicle - not near it.

[Mobhack]

A new EXe is already in playtest.

Top hits are restricted now to the shell impact x,y hex (except cluster ammo of course). Any splash hits in hexes outside the impact x,y (bar cluster) cannot cause top hits, and the penetration outside the impact x,y is reduced for being splinters (not cluster). (Previously, top hits were allowed in splash hexes.)

Results are encouraging - less damages in splash hit hexes, and some more track hits.

If you want armoured targets to be damaged by arty, you really now need a) 105mm or better b) a batallion firing (12-18 guns) into the same target point.

Cheers
Andy

[Alby]

12-18 guns into the same hex to get any armor damage?
I would think 3-4 guns would be enough

[DRG]

Alby said:
12-18 guns into the same hex to get any armor damage?
I would think 3-4 guns would be enough

The higher the caliber the great the chance of damage, the greater the number of guns the greater the chance of damage. Different combinations give different results but our testing is showing far less of the type of problem that people were complaining about yet tanks are not immune to gun fire by any means. The just aren't as fragile as they were

Don

[Mobhack]

3-4 guns (a platoon/troop) may well get some damage. But that really would be for harrasing fire only, the minimum unit of fire of Arty on any worthwhile target is usually an entire battery (6-8 guns). e.g - a platoon of enemy infantry in the defence would be such. A company sized infantry target needs a batallion (UK Regiment).

However, in order to really break up armoured formations you really need a battalion sized stonk, preferably more. Artillery is a club, so the more weight the better.

The chapter on artillery in Isbys "Weapons and Tactics of the Soviet Army" has this to say on weight of fire (in Soviet terms, Projectile Expenditure Rate or PER):

The PERs recognise that mass creates effectiveness. To get the equivalent effect of one three-batallion volley (54 shells) against infantry in the open requires ten one-batallion volleys (180 shells) or 43 one-battery volleys (258 shells).

If a British FOO called "Uncle target, Uncle target, Uncle target", All guns within range (unlike the e.g. Americans, for emergency fires the British would pull guns off any programmed missions etc) would fire 6-8 rounds FFE onto the coordinates within 5 minutes of the call, without registration. This was a standard response to a platoon sized tank target in 44. Apparently, it would turn the earh over a metre deep in a 500 metre circle. tanks would be flipped on thier backs.

As a school army cadet, I went on a weeks artillery course in the mid 70s at the School of Artillery at Larkhall. Fun with 25 pounders . At the weekend it happened to be the annual Artillery Day public show. The grand finale was a divisional shoot by 72 guns. Most impressive. But that would be a "Victor" target an "Uncle" was the entire arty park of the AGRA (Army Group, Royal Artillery), barring the FLAK.

Cheers
Andy

[Vikhr]

Sounds nice, indeed.

I like the new way artillery fire is resolved against vehicles, although there have been too many splash hits (horrendous for morale, especially with Russians), and one case where a KV-8 in a hex next to target was killed by a comrades flamethrower!