Byblical Mod Discussion ("Moved" from Dom3 forum)

[WraithLord]

On the 12 tribes and Kohanim and levyim (pronounced levi'im), as far as my memory goes that is:

There were three fore fathers to the Israelite nation -
Abraham -> Yitzhak (who was to be sacrificed by his father to god as a test of faith) -> Ya'akov (Jacob), whose name means "he who grabs the ankle" - for it was told that he had fought an angle in his dream and won the fight by grabbing at its ankle. So Ya'akov was also called Israel had twelve sons who where the fathers of the twelve tribes

Ya'akov's sons:
Reuben - first born, name means look, son,
Shim'on (Simon) - name means listening,
*** Levi *** - He his the fore father of the priests tribe whose most prominent members were Moses and A'haron. The Kohanim were decndents of A'haron who was the first "Kohen gadol" or high priest. The levites are lesser priests then the Kohanim.
Yehuda (Judah) - his decedents have kept their identity through the millennia - they are today's jews.
The rest are Dan, Naftali, Gad, Asher, Issachar and Zvulun.
Last were Joseph (described as a prophet in the bible) and Benjamin.

Wow, that came out long, now don't got me started on the angles

[Agrajag]

No spears?
As far as I know from bible lessons, spears were used (IIRC the Akravaim from "Avi yser etchem beshotim veani ayaser etchem beakravim" were spearlike)
And Ya'akov grabbed the ankle of Esav when they exited their mother's womb.
As for the tribes, in the bible the different tribes didn't have much of a different identity to emphasize in the game, so I don't see how you can add them (except for maybe the Levi).
Maybe they are mentioned in other sources, but I wouldn't know about that.

And cavalry is an option, IIRC king David had many horses at his disposal. (Though I agree cavalry should be weak, if at all existing, since in most of he stories the Israelites had very little cavalry/horses, and Israel does not have any natural population of horses AFAIK)

BTW, the ancient israelites had the technology to build siege towers, so if you feel like giving them some sort of siege weapon

EDIT: Whoops! Apparently the forum software can't support hebrew. *replaces hebrew with "English"*

[Endoperez]

Slingers and bowmen seem to have been part of the Israelite (Israeli?) forces. It is especially mentioned that the slings were used left-handed. Maybe most infantry should be given slings and precision of 14 - using slings took lots of training, but stones were easy to come by. Alternatively, they could be given slightly modified slings, with range 35, dam [str-2] and prec 0 to show their mastery of the weapon.

There shouldn't be a slinger-hero. He would be equipped with some magical bow any way, and slings as normal weapons are rarely considered as dangerous as they were. The lead glandes shot from slings had to be extracted from the bodies of soldiers they had struck, and that can't be good...

[Agrajag]

I say Israelite to differentiate them from Israelis of today, I really don't know what the proper way of saying it is.
As for slingers and bowmen, I don't remember* any refernce to bows in the bible, nor slings (except for David and Goliath), but if you say they were a part of the ancient military, then I believe you.
Left Handed slings would be really cool, because I'm left handed
There shouldn't be a slinger hero? According to what you said, a slinger hero makes sense. We could even have David as a leader with powerful sling abilities.

Other hero ideas:
Cain Clone: If it was possible, making Cain Immortal and giving him the Blood Vengance effect would be really cool, this would simulate the Mark of Cain that ensures that he will: a) Forever roam the land b) Anyone who strikes him will be punished seven folds.
Elyahu/Elijah Clone: Uber prophet hero. This guy was a serious miracle worker, he even revived a dying child (Awwwww!)
Moses Clone: Another uber miracle worker, this guy can take credit (although obviously the credit goes to god) for a rain of frogs, turning water into blod, lice, complete darkness, a hail made from huge burning rocks of ice, etc.
Solomon Clone: Very wise, should be able to decrease chance of bad events happening.
Samson Clone: Uber strength.

*-I have a pretty lousy memory

[Endoperez]

"Judges 20:16
Among all these soldiers there were seven hundred chosen men who were left-handed, each of whom could sling a stone at a hair and not miss."

"1 Chronicles 12:2
they were armed with bows and were able to shoot arrows or to sling stones right-handed or left-handed; they were kinsmen of Saul from the tribe of Benjamin):"

I searched for 'sling' in BibleGateway.com - that's the two mentions of slings in warfare. I have read elsewhere, but can't cite any sources, that some tribe of Israelites (probably tribe of Benjamin) were extraordinarily good with slings, and perhaps ranged weapons in general.

I would rather not have a David hero, precisely because everyone knows the story of a peasant-slinger. Very few realize sling was actually quite deadly weapon. As a hobbyist-slinger, I'd rather have sling respeceted for the power it really had (better range than shorbows of the time, for one), and not remembered as the toy that divine power magically transformed into a weapon.

As an interesting variation, what if most heroes had a double-edged power(s), or they were described as such? All men fall, and were punished. Job would make a good hero, IMO. He raises dominion, but causes bad events to happen - on the other hand, he can be an awesome preacher, even prophet, but on the other hand, you don't want him on your important provinces.

[Nerfix]

BTW, for the record I've been thinking a bit of how one could split this into three eras.

I'll look into the units this weekend.

[Agrajag]

Jobe sounds like an interesting hero, if he can be modded the way you say. The only problem would be making him an excellent preacher like you said, because Prophets are candidates for Holy4, and that means the only way to make him better is with Holy-5, which is maximum holy. And propheting him would seem really wierd (would he get Holy-6? O_O)
I'm not really sure how you think it can be split into three eras, because:
1) It will require 3 times the work (atleast on unit graphics )
2) The theme behind this nation is extremely low-tech and high-magic, even in the height of ancient Israel they had almost no access to iron, using bronze as their strongest metal, AFAIK. This makes it fit only to the most ancient magical era.
You could replace it in newer eras with the empires that conquered ancient Israel (Babylon, Greece etc.) but I believe they are already represented in the game, so aren't really good mod material.
You could invent an alternate history, but then the newer eras would seem detached from the original theme.

Anyway, if you give our(:P) nation powerful slingers, make sure to state they are left handed

[Reverend Zombie]

Agrajag said:
Moses Clone: Another uber miracle worker, this guy can take credit (although obviously the credit goes to god) for a rain of frogs, turning water into blod, lice, complete darkness, a hail made from huge burning rocks of ice, etc.

Don't forget to give Moses the sailing ability! Can he give it to troops he leads as well?

[Nerfix]

Reverend Zombie said:Don't forget to give Moses the sailing ability! Can he give it to troops he leads as well?

Eeeer, sailing commanders lead their troops over the seas. Militias or demon knights, there's no difference IIRC.

[WraithLord]

Agrajag said:
No spears?
As far as I know from bible lessons, spears were used (IIRC the Akravaim from "Avi yser etchem beshotim veani ayaser etchem beakravim" were spearlike)

Not sure about that, slings, bows, staffs and maybe short swords as far as I recall.

Agrajag said:
And Ya'akov grabbed the ankle of Esav when they exited their mother's womb.

right of course, glad I have already done "tanach bagrut"

Agrajag said:
As for the tribes, in the bible the different tribes didn't have much of a different identity to emphasize in the game, so I don't see how you can add them (except for maybe the Levi).
Maybe they are mentioned in other sources, but I wouldn't know about that.

Makes sense, I was just throwing this as an idea.

Agrajag said:
And cavalry is an option, IIRC king David had many horses at his disposal. (Though I agree cavalry should be weak, if at all existing, since in most of he stories the Israelites had very little cavalry/horses, and Israel does not have any natural population of horses AFAIK)

Maybe weak cavalry, I'm not sure it adds much in terms of thematic value.