Some Observations...(all are welcomed)

[Renegade 13]

capnq said:
The general argument for eating animals is that they taste good, and provide a few nutrients that plants don't.

Wow. If you read some of the emails that guy got, it really is amazing how many total fools are in the world, thinking the way they do. "Animals have never done anything to hurt you" indeed! What about the people bitten by a dog, mauled by a cougar, killed by a bear, kicked in the groin by a cow? *Yep, that did happen to me* Haven't hurt people...give me a break!

Sorry, I just get a little annoyed by animal rights activists...

[PvK]

Renegade 13 said:
Wow. If you read some of the emails that guy got, it really is amazing how many total fools are in the world, thinking the way they do. "Animals have never done anything to hurt you" indeed! What about the people bitten by a dog, mauled by a cougar, killed by a bear, kicked in the groin by a cow? *Yep, that did happen to me* Haven't hurt people...give me a break!

Sorry, I just get a little annoyed by animal rights activists...

So...
1. Some humans at some point were attacked by some animals for reasons some humans saw as unprovoked.
2. Therefore all humans, even those never attacked by any animal in any circumstance, have (by virtue of some sort of species self-defense?) the right to kill (and maybe eat, or just eat animals killed by others in some unseen factory somewhere) any animals they want (as long as they aren't owned or protected by some other humans...)?

I think "because they're tasty" is more like the actual reason people decide to eat animals. That, and they don't have to face and kill (or "clean", or even cook) them themselves.

PvK

[Renegade 13]

PvK said:
So...
1. Some humans at some point were attacked by some animals for reasons some humans saw as unprovoked.
2. Therefore all humans, even those never attacked by any animal in any circumstance, have (by virtue of some sort of species self-defense?) the right to kill (and maybe eat, or just eat animals killed by others in some unseen factory somewhere) any animals they want (as long as they aren't owned or protected by some other humans...)?

Well...that actually wasn't what I was saying. I was more pointing out one fallacy in the arguements of some of the people who emailed the guy who ran that site.

I think "because they're tasty" is more like the actual reason people decide to eat animals. That, and they don't have to face and kill (or "clean", or even cook) them themselves.

PvK

Granted, if they weren't tasty people likely wouldn't eat animals

However, some people do "face and kill" and clean and even cook them. For example, me. I help to butcher the animal, and have absolutely no problem eating a steak that night.

Animals eat other animals, and a lot more cruelly than people eat animals. After all, we kill them humanely, without any suffering. We're a lot nicer than animal carnivores. I don't see any reason why animals should eat animals, but people shouldn't...??

[Strategia_In_Ultima]

Renegade 13 said:
Animals eat other animals, and a lot more cruelly than people eat animals. After all, we kill them humanely, without any suffering. We're a lot nicer than animal carnivores.

Ooh, I dunno about you there across the pond but we here in the Netherlands are having some problems with that..... Right now, a reasonably-sized part of our animal (mainly chicken, pig and cow) products comes from what we call the "bio-industry", which is definitely NOT humane. Chickens get their beaks burnt off upon birth, are raised to become so heavy their feet won't support them any more and get slaughtered when they're under a year old. They're killed by either drowning or gassing them. Cows are placed in crates with a head opening when they're still calves, they get raised to be so fat they suffer from being compressed in such a small space, they regularly suffer from numerous afflictions and them they get slaughtered too, also in a very cruel way. That's why the animal rights activists in my country are absolutely adamant that this trade becomes forbidden.

Now I don't know about you there, but I plainly get sick of stuff like this, and therefore I don't eat meat. Try all you may, I will end my days without ever having consumed a dead animal (barring the few times some part of some animal was hidden in something that looked vegetarian).

[Randallw]

I saw a documentary about pig farming in the Netherlands once. Spends most of the film showing the happy little porkers growing up in their pen, and apart from the bit where they avoid the meat being ruined by a boarish smell, they appeared to do well enough. Then at the end most of them get sent off. It took about 4-5 seconds from being happy little porkers to getting koshered you might say It was humane I guess. Lets just say it inolved electricity.

[dogscoff]

I only buy organic and/ or 'cruelty-free' meat at the supermarket. However who knows what I eat when I eat out...

[Fyron]

Strategia_In_Ultima said:
Right now, a reasonably-sized part of our animal (mainly chicken, pig and cow) products comes from what we call the "bio-industry", which is definitely NOT humane.

One company does something cruelly so now the whole industry is "inhumane?" Flimsy propaganda is all they have going. There are all sorts of valid reasons to be a vegetarian (not so many for veganism, but whatever floats your boat); alarmist propaganda like this isn't one of them.

Note that I am not calling you an alarmist or anything; you are just as much a victim as everyone else.

[Renegade 13]

I don't mean to cause any offense SIU, but what you've been told is a big load of bull****.

Chickens don't have their beaks burned off; how would they eat? It would serve absolutely no purpose. Yeah, they're slaughtered under a year old, but how is that wrong? They're full grown before a year is out, so it makes little economic sense to keep them alive. It sure isn't immoral/inhumane to kill them young. Also, chickens aren't killed by drowning or gassing, they're killed by electrocution since it makes the feathers much easier to remove. They don't feel a thing when you jolt them with thousands of volts.

Speaking as a cattle rancher, someone with knowledge about these things. Cattle most certainly are NOT stuffed in crates shortly after birth, to live there for life. Calves are born, castrated (in a humane manner, trust me on this. They're neutered via constriction of an elastic band. Everything just goes numb) then get an ear-tag identifying them (no worse than a person getting an earring). After that, they live with their mothers on pasture. The pasture is about 50 acres in size, so there's plenty of room. Plenty of grass and water. Or hay and water before the grass is growing. They grow until they're roughly 700 pounds (8 months or so), then they're sold. After that, they go to the feedlot where they're grain-fed for another several months (always with space to move around and do what cows do...which is primarly eat, sleep, and crap) until they're around 1300 pounds, and then they're slaughtered. They are slaughtered via a painless procedure whereby their brain is penetrated by a sharp object, and they die instantly.

Animal rights activists are (in a lot of cases) manipulative in the extreme. For example, it was proven that here in Canada, where they petition for the outlawing of the seal hunt, it was shown that they organized the skinning of a live seal. They then filmed this, and used it as their ammunition to try and outlaw it. I don't know about you, but this sickens me a hell of a lot more than how animals are slaughtered. Sickens me.

I'm not trying to convince you to eat meat, since you seem rather convinced that it's the right thing to do. But you sure wouldn't have survived being a vegetarian back a couple hundred years ago

I've participated in the slaughtering of several of our own animals. They're shot in the head and die right away. Sometimes they live to a ripe old age, 14 years or so (cows don't have a long natural lifespan).

The ways people kill animals nowadays is one hell of a lot more humane than how animals kill each other. Sometimes I think people (animal rights activists) are just looking for some cause to get the public upset so they can rake in the cash from donations. In fact, I'm sure that's what some of them are in it for. Now, I'm not saying all are like that, but I'm sure a lot are.

I will remain a proud meat-eating person for all my life. I will never stop eating meat...and enjoy every bite of it.

[Wade]

----- A compelling hypothetical; not to judge but to offer thought expansion:

I'm an omnivore.
My intellect lets me know many benefits to eating meat. Taste pleasue, high brain energy, better adaptation in case of an extreme environmental condition...

My intellect also allows me to use emotion to empathize with my prey(even if the meat is from a store or restaurant). Sapience and consciousness are just words created that stress our extreme intelligence level above the other life forms that we share this planet with...

Assume a scenario where an alien race of an extreme intelligence level above ours that we share this universe with comes to our humble planet. They too are omnivores and have found us to be a tasty food item. They process us in a very quick and painless way. Indeed, we may not even know the scope of this process or even that it happens; even at the point of death. I doubt many of our food life forms(animals) know what will happen to them as they go about their business in the fields and buildings and water.

This is the nature of things. Even life forms of equal or nearly equal levels of intelligence routinely eat each other. Many have evolved it to a necessity.

If we became aware that these aliens were eating us our number one desire would be that they stop eating us. We also might want them to go away and stop the food processes and infrusructure that they built up around us. We would not care so much how quick and painless the death process was when compared to the process as a whole. Most of the aliens might not even care if they could even be aware of our complaints.
Our food life forms complain in their various ways moments before their death. Cows, pigs, and chickens struggling and screaming in a processing building; fish and other life forms struggling and communicating in various ways in nets and boats.
The aliens would use their own extreme intellect above ours to measure their benefits and emotion. The majority of them would probably continue to consume us as a tasty food item.

Hopefully any aliens that we meet will have advanced enough evolutionary or technologically to direct energy consumption; or simply not find us to be a tasty food item. Hopefully we will have advanced to a level of intelligence, technology, and evolution higher than our competitors when we meet(possibly to direct energy consumption).

When we leave this solar system to colonize others we will find new life forms of lesser intelligence. We will probably find many of them to be tasty food items that we process in a quick and painless way.

These are some things I some times consider that make me think about being a vegitarian. In the end though I am an omnivore.

-Wade

[capnq]

Wade said:A compelling hypothetical;

Compelling is in the eye of the beholder.

Assume a scenario where an alien race of an extreme intelligence level above ours that we share this universe with comes to our humble planet. They too are omnivores and have found us to be a tasty food item.

This is where I start to have suspension of disbelief problems with the scenario. Even if some quality of the universe causes all life forms to use chemically similar forms of DNA, ISTM that the odds are that separate paths of molecular evolution would leave each race full of biochemicals that the other(s) find unpalatable if not toxic. At best, I'd expect us to make potentially useful sources of exotic organic chemicals.

One of my favorite bits of the background color in Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri is the incompatible biochemistry between Terran animals and Planet's lifeforms.

If we became aware that these aliens were eating us our number one desire would be that they stop eating us. We also might want them to go away and stop the food processes and infrusructure that they built up around us. We would not care so much how quick and painless the death process was when compared to the process as a whole. Most of the aliens might not even care if they could even be aware of our complaints.

Our number one desire would be to convince others that it's really happening.