Some Observations...(all are welcomed)

[Fyron]

PvK said:
...people who care about the treatment of animals.

Why should I care about them? They only exist to become food, afterall. I don't want to see excessive production waste just because it makes the animals "happier."

[narf poit chez BOOM]

According to my dad, who was raised on a farm, eight chickens cannot be crammed into an 8x8x8 sized encloser.

Based on my own understanding of the dimensions of a chicken, I doubt you could fit a single chicken in there.

[PvK]

narf poit chez BOOM said:
According to my dad, who was raised on a farm, eight chickens cannot be crammed into an 8x8x8 sized encloser.

Based on my own understanding of the dimensions of a chicken, I doubt you could fit a single chicken in there.

Narf, what are you referring to? The low end was 40 or 48 inches square per chicken, not per eight chickens. 48 would be about 7 x 7 per chicken (if it were square, vertical unspecified), and the wonderful concession is a gradual increase to 72 which is more like 8 x 9 inches (flappin' 4 joy (tm)). There are generally several chickens per cage though, so an 8-chicken cage would be 8 times as big, with 8 chickens. There are pictures on the net of course if still curious. Just do a Google image search for: chicken "battery cage" ... or not.

[Captain Kwok]

I find it interesting Regegade13 that you complain about the generalizations made by vegetarian groups etc., and then you go and make a half-dozen generalizations yourself. PvK already addressed most of these items, but let me assure you there are large populations of people who live in rural communities that do not eat animal products and they survive just fine. Just because your experience is more noble, doesn't mean that people who don't eat meat for some of the reasons mentioned in this thread are without reason.

If anything, people in North America generally consume more meat than is healthy, particularly of beef and pork. If you look at some of the top causes of death in North America, many can be attributed to this diet. Instead of consuming bacon in moderation, we'd rather genetically engineer pigs to make lower cholesterol bacon...

Of course, many of these animals wouldn't exist if it weren't for the demand for their meat, but that doesn't justify that they need to suffer. Fyron should hope that the animals that are raised for his consumption are happy, because it certainly makes a difference in the end product that he will see on his dinner table.

There is nothing wrong with not eating meat because you don't like the general treatment of animals in the meat industry. It's your choice and good for you. Of course, there are always the few people among any group that are preachy and irksome, but that's the same for any body of people that have a "cause".

[Glyn]

Meat Meat Meat!!!

Doesn’t anyone care about Plant rights!

Plants are people too! Or would be if they had a central nervous system.

When was the last time you hugged a plant. Poison ivy need love too!!!


Seriously,
Vegetarians are simply choosing not to consume a product for what ever reason. Some believe so strongly that they may violate others rights in the process to enlighten non-vegetarians. Some people who are economically tied to the meat industry may also use extreme measures.

Several studies that have come out recently are supporting the Idea that animals raised in more natural environments eating more natural food (IE. grass vs grain for cattle) make for healthier food for humans. IE Less cruel treatment = more economic sense.


There was a news story about a dairy farmer who installed waterbeds for his cows. Apparently, the cows liked them. I don’t known if the cows produced more milk or higher quality milk.

In July 2001, the Heindel family built a barn on its 2,200-acre farm that came equipped with four robotic milkers, a 26-fan ventilation system, two cow back scratchers, about 280 cow waterbeds and two automatic scrapers that work to remove manure from the building.

The battle on behalf of the poor beleaguered laying hen has, over the past 30 years or so, been fought by the consumer with some passion and, if not won, then at least fairly honourably drawn. Free-range eggs (as opposed to battery eggs laid by hens in tiny cages), now account for about 50 per cent of all UK egg sales to the public

[Fyron]

Captain Kwok said:
Fyron should hope that the animals that are raised for his consumption are happy, because it certainly makes a difference in the end product that he will see on his dinner table.

I've yet to encounter any "organic" (or whatever the appropriate term in this case is) chicken/eggs that was any different from other chicken/eggs. Maybe for animals that do not produce bland and insipid meat, but chicken?

PvK said:
You should care about them because you are compassionate and would like to reduce suffering.

Why should I extend compassion to food products? There is plenty of human suffering to be compastionate about; compassion for what is going to be on my dinner table soon enough is wasted effort.

[Captain Kwok]

A lot of chicken you'll encounter in the grocery store is pumped with a solution of salt, water, and phosphates to help counter stress-induced meat characteristics and present a nice visual (not to mention increase the price with extra water weight!). It's so prevalent that having unpumped chicken is probably a rarity for most consumers.

Also, with high volume operations, processors tend to use various concoctions of antibiotics/hormones in feed etc. to help prevent disease and promote growth etc. - these items do make it to the shelf (and surrounding environment) in some quantities.

For Beef it does make a lot of difference. You'll note that all the highest grade beef comes from generally smaller producers that raise their cattle more naturally vs. the large producers.

[PvK]

Imperator Fyron said:
Why should I extend compassion to food products? There is plenty of human suffering to be compastionate about; compassion for what is going to be on my dinner table soon enough is wasted effort.

Because you're grateful, gracious and humble? Because you're a nice person who doesn't like suffering? Because "none of the above" is one of the multiple-choice options for "who would you like to suffer a miserable existance?" Because you reflect that if you were raised for food, you'd rather be given better treatment than being packed shoulder to shoulder with others in a dark cage before being slaughtered and turned into human McNuggets? Because the risk of serious new disease strains and human malnutrition may be greatly increased by some industrial farm practices?

[narf poit chez BOOM]

PvK said:

Narf, what are you referring to? The low end was 40 or 48 inches square per chicken, not per eight chickens. 48 would be about 7 x 7 per chicken (if it were square, vertical unspecified), and the wonderful concession is a gradual increase to 72 which is more like 8 x 9 inches (flappin' 4 joy (tm)). There are generally several chickens per cage though, so an 8-chicken cage would be 8 times as big, with 8 chickens. There are pictures on the net of course if still curious. Just do a Google image search for: chicken "battery cage" ... or not.

Ah, thanks. I misread.

That does look rather cruel. I don't actually know if that's prevalent, but it's definitly cruel.

[Kamog]

Soon we won't have to kill animals to produce meat. According to this article, scientists are using stem cells to grow meat in a test tube!