OT: Counter-Terrorism is a Farce

[Atrocities]

To the people who seemingly hate Israel and enjoy blaming them, please answer my questions if you would be so kind. Tell me where I am going wrong here. To me it seems that your picking on Israel just for the sake of doing so. I fail to see why some, mostly anti-jewish racists blame Israel for all the problems in that region. I don't see the Israel blowing up bus loads of kids, or markets full of people. The last time I looked it wasn't an Israel luanching rockets into Isreal or an Israel strapping a suicide pack on and blowing up a check point and detonating a car bomb. Forgive me for saying this but I don't recall ever reading about or hearing of an Israel beheading inocent people or hijacking planes, flying planes into the ground, buildings, or ordering them to land in terrorist supportive nations and then executing inocent people to get fuel.

No if your going to blame Israel for all the problems in the middle east, then why not just say what you really think, that Hitler should have killed them all when he got the chance and that the Arabs are Gods chosen people to finish what Hitler failed too do. Just be honest, your a racist and enjoy blaming the victim for when the victim fights back against his attacker and or assualter. Then again I could be really off base here and in need of being corrected. The way I am seeing it is that most of the people who are against israel just hate jews and want to see them destroyed. To me that is racisim and it is wrong.

[Renegade 13]

Atrocities said:
To the people who seemingly hate Israel and enjoy blaming them, please answer my questions if you would be so kind. Tell me where I am going wrong here. To me it seems that your picking on Israel just for the sake of doing so. I fail to see why some, mostly anti-jewish racists blame Israel for all the problems in that region. I don't see the Israel blowing up bus loads of kids, or markets full of people. The last time I looked it wasn't an Israel luanching rockets into Isreal or an Israel strapping a suicide pack on and blowing up a check point and detonating a car bomb. Forgive me for saying this but I don't recall ever reading about or hearing of an Israel beheading inocent people or hijacking planes, flying planes into the ground, buildings, or ordering them to land in terrorist supportive nations and then executing inocent people to get fuel.

No if your going to blame Israel for all the problems in the middle east, then why not just say what you really think, that Hitler should have killed them all when he got the chance and that the Arabs are Gods chosen people to finish what Hitler failed too do. Just be honest, your a racist and enjoy blaming the victim for when the victim fights back against his attacker and or assualter. Then again I could be really off base here and in need of being corrected. The way I am seeing it is that most of the people who are against israel just hate jews and want to see them destroyed. To me that is racisim and it is wrong.

In their latest conflict, Israel and Hezbollah both acted like terrorist groups. Hezbollah kidnapped soldiers, launched rockets at civilians, etc. Everyone has to admit that those are terrorist actions.

However, look at what Israel did. Israel didn't launch rockets, no. Instead, they dropped bombs. They blew up hospitals for fu**s sake! They destroyed bridges, roads, power plants, hospitals, everything. Just how many Lebanese civilians, as well as the civilians of other nations (Canadians and Americans even) did Israel kill? Close to a thousand?

They're both terrorist organizations, the only difference is that one is supported materially and politically by the US, and is therefore portrayed as the "good guys" in American media.

There were no good guys in the last round of fighting. No one had the ideological high ground.

[Atrocities]

However, look at what Israel did. Israel didn't launch rockets, no. Instead, they dropped bombs. They blew up hospitals for fu**s sake!

Um, Hezbollah attacked them by committing a terrorist act. They have every right to respond. Those roads, bridges, and buildings that were bombed were destroyed in order to help slow the rearming and escape of Hezbollah terrorists. In war, bridge, roads, rails, cars, and buildings are often destroyed dilibrately. It is not Israel's fault that the terroristed used hospitals as bases of operations thus putting inocent, and not so inocent, Lebanese in harms way. In war people die, that is fact. Choosing a side souly because you hate jews is simply wrong.

Israel is a soverign state, a nation, Hezbollah is neither a state nor a nation, they are a terroristic military force answerable not to the Lebanese, but to the Sirans and Iranians.

And honestly, who the hell are you, who the hell are we, to judge Israel? Do you live there? Have you lived there? You, and indeed all of us, do not know anything about what it is like to live in that region and therefor have no right too pass judgement on those who live there. Hezbollah attacked and drew first blood. If I am not mistaken, that is an act of war is it not? And I promis you, since they got away with what they did, they will rearm and do it all over again.

And will you be their to critize Israel when they respond?

There were no good guys in the last round of fighting. No one had the ideological high ground.

I agree.

[Renegade 13]

Atrocities said:
Choosing a side souly because you hate jews is simply wrong.

First off, this is an insulting accusation, I have absolutely no prejudice against Jews. The fact that I don't agree with you, and I don't believe that Israel can do no wrong doesn't make me an Anti-Semite.

Um, Hezbollah attacked them by committing a terrorist act. They have every right to respond.

I agree, Hezbollah "started it", and Israel had to respond. I'm saying their response was out of proportion to the original attack.

Those roads, bridges, and buildings that were bombed were destroyed in order to help slow the rearming and escape of Hezbollah terrorists. In war, bridge, roads, rails, cars, and buildings are often destroyed dilibrately. It is not Israel's fault that the terroristed used hospitals as bases of operations thus putting inocent, and not so inocent, Lebanese in harms way. In war people die, that is fact.

So you're saying that, no matter where the terrorists are, you have to blow your way through innocents to get at them? Did any of the bombings Israel did stop Hezbollah from firing rockets? Nope, they accelerated towards the end. Bombing roads just stopped innocent people from getting away from the fighting, and prevented aid workers from getting in to help the aforementioned innocents. I also agree that, in war, a country's infrastructure will always be a target. But ask yourself this: Did Israel declare war on Lebanon, which owns all the infrastructure? I thought they declared war on a terrorist group. So go kill the terrorists, don't go rampaging through the entire country blowing hell out of everything just because you can!

I'm also not saying it's Israel's fault that Hezbollah holed up in hospitals, and I know that some collateral damage is to be expected in any military campaign. But hospitals? Come on. You don't just go in and blow up a hospital because you suspect (yes, suspect, not know) that some terrorists might be using it as a base. Supposedly, the reason for fighting terrorists is to stop innocent people from being killed. Yet, if you kill innocent people to prevent innocent people from being killed, are you actually accomplishing anything? Oh right, I forgot, they're not your innocents, so they don't count.

And honestly, who the hell are you, who the hell are we, to judge Israel? Do you live there? Have you lived there? You, and indeed all of us, do not know anything about what it is like to live in that region and therefor have no right too pass judgement on those who live there.

I have every right to pass judgement on what those groups do there. It is my right to form my opinions based upon the facts, and to decide who is and is not "right" or "wrong" after analyzing those facts.

But lets say you're right. Lets say I don't have any right to pass judgement. Then what right does the US government, or any government, have the right to pass judgement on what happened there? What gives them the right to demand this and that and the other thing, while I don't have the right to even decide on my own who is right and who is wrong!!??

Did you ever experience what it was like to live in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany? No, you haven't. Yet I bet you've passed judgement on the Germans of the era for what they did there. What gives you the right to do that, if I don't have the right to judge the Israeli's and Hezbollah??

And I promis you, since they got away with what they did, they will rearm and do it all over again.

And due to how Israel acted this latest time, they'll have more support than ever. Don't you think that Israel bombing hospitals and bridges and roads and power plants might effect how well their recruiting amongst the Lebanese people will go once "next time" rolls around? Israel just shot themselves in the foot with how they acted.

[b]And will you be their to critize Israel when they respond?[b]

If they act the same way as they did this time, and act no better than terrorists themselves, then yes, I'll be there to criticize Israel again. Yet you seem to be missing someting; I wasn't blaming Israel for everything, I said they had to share some of the blame for this most recent mess.

[Atrocities]

First off, this is an insulting accusation, I have absolutely no prejudice against Jews. The fact that I don't agree with you, and I don't believe that Israel can do no wrong doesn't make me an Anti-Semite

Sorry Ren, I was speaking in general terms and not directing the comment at you personally.

[Atrocities]

Um, Hezbollah attacked them by committing a terrorist act. They have every right to respond.

I agree, Hezbollah "started it", and Israel had to respond. I'm saying their response was out of proportion to the original attack.

I tend to agree.

Did you ever experience what it was like to live in a concentration camp in Nazi Germany? No, you haven't. Yet I bet you've passed judgement on the Germans of the era for what they did there. What gives you the right to do that, if I don't have the right to judge the Israeli's and Hezbollah??

I agree that our opinions are based mostly on the facts that we do have, but honestly speaking, when most of those facts are being fed to us peacemeal through a strongly anti-israeli news media, then those facts by which we form our opinion flaw our opinion.

Our government, indeed all governments have the right to be concerned and involved in the peace process, and form a political judgement based upon the facts at hand. That is what we and many other countries have elected our governments to do. To act on our behalf in world affairs that ultimately could and will involve us politically. Our government, right or wrong, is the primary supporter of Israel and that is, above all else, why the Arab terrorists, and most Arabs in general, dislike us. They hate the jews, abo****ely 100% hate them and wish them all dead. We support Israel so the old saying, the friend of my enemy is also my enemy is the idology by which we Americans are now being condemed.

As to passing judgement on what the Germans of WWII aloud and did do to the Jews, you are correct, I have passed judgement against them. What they did, and aloud to happen, was wrong morally in so many ways that not passing judgement about the acts perpitrated against the Jews would in and of itself be criminal. That is why many Germans were tried and later executed for war crimes. The entire WORLD passed judgement upon them.

"The highest courage is to be yourself in the face of adversity, choosing right from wrong, ethics over convenience, and truth over popularity. These are the choices that measure your life. Travel the path of integrity without looking back, for thre is never a wrong time to do the right thing." - Unknown.

Yet you seem to be missing someting; I wasn't blaming Israel for everything, I said they had to share some of the blame for this most recent mess.

My apologies. Your statement here is most accurate. Israel should have been the adult here and first worked through Lebenon (sp) before invading their nation. Right of defense aside, that would have been the best political course of action.

[Randallw]

Here's an interesting story

tea party

It seems to me that Lebanon is at least partly to blame. If terrorists in a neighbouring country are launching rockets at you and that country doesn't attempt or is unable to stop them it can only be expected you take things into your own hands.

[Renegade 13]

Atrocities said:
Sorry Ren, I was speaking in general terms and not directing the comment at you personally.

No problem Atrocities, misunderstandings happen all too frequently over the internet.

[dogscoff]

Normally we see pretty well eye to eye AT, I'm really disappointed that I have to come down on you like this, but you are out of line.

To the people who seemingly hate Israel and enjoy blaming them, please answer my questions if you would be so kind. Tell me where I am going wrong here. To me it seems that your picking on Israel just for the sake of doing so. I fail to see why some, mostly anti-jewish racists blame Israel for all the problems in that region.

There's a big gap between "I disagree with the way Israel handles its foreign policy" and "I hate all jews". Don't call people racists without cause, it only pisses them off and makes you look stupid.

I don't see the Israel blowing up bus loads of kids, or markets full of people.

Then you're not looking. The Israelis have been known to destroy entire towns in response for terrorist bombings. And no, before you start, this doesn't mean I am a supporter of terrorism or a Nazi or anything like that. I abhor terrorists, but I also abhor Israel's brutality. They have done as much to escalate the conflict as anyone else. Both sides are guilty.

{loads of offensive, reactionary flamebait snipped}...say what you really think, that Hitler should have killed them all...

I hereby invoke Godwin's law. You lose.

Just be honest, your a racist

No, you be honest. You are an idiot who finds it easier to call anyone who disagrees with you 'Hitler' than to look at the shades of grey in-between the two extremes of the debate. It's that kind of polarised, extremist, de-humanising thinking in the west, in Israel and in the islamic extremists that has caused all this [censored] in the first place.

And honestly, who the hell are you, who the hell are we, to judge Israel? Do you live there? Have you lived there? ... have no right too pass judgement on those who live there

OK, fair enough so far, but then you go on to say...

Hezbollah attacked and drew first blood. If I am not mistaken, that is an act of war is it not? And I promis you, since they got away with what they did, they will rearm and do it all over again.

Aren't you doing here to Hezbollah exactly what you just criticised others for doing to Israel? Hypocrisy much?

EDIT: Fixed formatting, that's all.

[Atrocities]

I am very dissapointed in you dogscoff. I feel that I am entitled to my opinion, and my comment were a generalized statement designed to promote honest discussion, based in part on ligitimate opinions, points of view, and a logical conclusions relating to racism. Since my statements were generalized and not directed at any one personally, I must surrender to the fact that in any debate people get angry and regrettably sometimes resort to flaming. I believe that you could have made your counter points without personal insults. I would have preferred that you would had offer proof to support your statements rather than flaming me, however you didn't, and I feel that the personal attack toward me was unwarrented. You make several good points to which I would like to respond.

There's a big gap between "I disagree with the way Israel handles its foreign policy" and "I hate all jews". Don't call people racists without cause, it only pisses them off and makes you look stupid.

While I agree with your statement about "big gaps" I have to point out that I was specifically refering to people who do hate all jews in general and that their position is one of racism. If that pisses them off, then they are the ones who look stupid because racism in general is indeed stupid.

Then you're not looking. The Israelis have been known to destroy entire towns in response for terrorist bombings. And no, before you start, this doesn't mean I am a supporter of terrorism or a Nazi or anything like that. I abhor terrorists, but I also abhor Israel's brutality. They have done as much to escalate the conflict as anyone else. Both sides are guilty

Can I ask you if there is any proof that Israel dilibrately used terrorist bombs to blow up school buses and markets filled with women, children, and inocent people? Bulldozing a building that has been repeatedly used by terrorists is not an act of terroism, it is an act of defense. I would like to point out that bulldozing a building or leveling several buildings, is not brutality when it is in response to terrorist attacks that have injured and killed inocent civilans. While both sides are pretty much fed up with each other, this does not give them each a moral high ground. I agree, they are both to blame for the escalation in violence and are both to blame for not working together to resolve their differance. Israel could have recognized the new Palistenian (sp) government and continued to give them the money owed, something that might have averted these most recent acts of anger on both sides. While the new government of Palistine and Lebenon could have maintained better control over their terrorist militias and prevented the kidnappings.

No, you be honest. You are an idiot who finds it easier to call anyone who disagrees with you 'Hitler' than to look at the shades of grey in-between the two extremes of the debate. It's that kind of polarised, extremist, de-humanising thinking in the west, in Israel and in the islamic extremists that has caused all this [censored] in the first place.

I did not call any one Hitler. Please get your facts strait before flaming me.

One of those shades of grey that you spoke of is the shade that is racist. There is no denying that racism is playing a part here. The Arabs absolutely hate the jews and as stated by the Iranian president, should be wiped out.

Israel did not start terrorism, nor have they resorted to it. So blaming them for terrorism is again something that I feel only a person who lacks the facts would do. Or to be brutally honest, who knows they lack the facts but does it anyways because they hate israel.

While some that hate israel are racists who do wish all jews would die, many people just dislike them and are not racists. They dislike them for whatever reason and often, more than not, blame them for all the woes in the middle east. Often without proof to back up said claims. But hey, that is their right, and they are entitled to their opinions, however, if they are racist against the jews, then they should be honest enough to come out and say so. All because I believe that this is what they should do if they are indeed racist, doesn't make me an "idiot" or "stupid."

Aren't you doing here to Hezbollah exactly what you just criticised others for doing to Israel? Hypocrisy much?

What did I accuse others of doing to Israel?

In general I believe that Hezbollah is a terrorist organization and given their statements and radicalized points of view, it is only logical, and I might add widely agreed upon, that they will attack again because they feel that they got away with it this time. Now I pray that they see the light and don't, but I honestly believe that that they will attack again.

Edit: spelling correction or two.