Dom-III discussion at GalCiv

DominionsFan · #1 August 29th, 2006, 05:06 PM

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WraithLord said:

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DominionsFAN said:
..and you can see posts like this in that forum:

"Master of Magic has better graphics, never cost 55$, and while the interface is somewhat behind the curve (it's at least 10-15 years old) it's still a lot more accessible and powerful than what I encountered when I tried to play the Dominions 2 demo a few months ago."

what can I say? no comment.

*edit*. I was just reading more posts. It seems that most of the Galciv2 people are complaining about the Doms 2. AI.
Example:

First claim is plain outrageous.

As to AI, no surprise there as GC-II has amazingly powerful AI. Dominions forte isn't it's AI or fgx, rather than it's depth, replaybility and (for me) charm.

Well I dont agree Wraith. Firstly, Galciv2 is a SP only game, so they focus on AIs. Secondly their so called AI is not working that good. I remember that I was playing Galciv 2. after like 2 patches, and the AI sucked still. It wasnt hard to beat 5 AIs on the hardest settings. The Galciv2 AIs are not bad, I wouldnt dare to say that, but surely not hard to beat for a human player. Now I tell you something more. I had harder times to win against the Doms 2. AIs then against the Galciv2 AIs. There were some Dom2 SP games for me, when I had a 4+ front war against the AIs and I lost. I never lost a single SP game in Galciv2. Why? Mainly because of diplomacy. Its fairly easy to turn an AI to your side and make an alliance. From that point you cant loose a game. Maybe this has been changed after more patches, but I seriously doubt that I would loose a Galciv2 game even now.

Well the Doms2 AI wasnt perfect, but it was good enough for the new players to practice before they play online.
As we know the Doms 3. AI will be better. I am also pretty sure that IW will upgrade the Doms 3. AI if it will be needed.

All in all, Im pretty disappointed that the Galciv2 players are bashing Doms 2. like this. Dominions 2. is much more complex then Galciv2. Thus its much harder to write an AI for Doms2, since the comp player must take care of many more different things. Oddly they forgot to mention this.

Annette · #2 August 29th, 2006, 05:26 PM

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All in all, Im pretty disappointed that the Galciv2 players are bashing Doms 2. like this.

Don't worry too much about that. Any discussion is good discussion, and we're very appreciative that Brad started a thread about Dom 3 on his forums. He's a class-act. We hope those of you who haven't played GalCiv 2 will give it a go.

baby_arm · #3 August 29th, 2006, 08:39 PM

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we're very appreciative that Brad started a thread about Dom 3 on his forums.

And had it on the front page no less. It's also worth noting what he wrote further in the thread:

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I think Domininions 2 is the best fantasy strategy game that has ever been made. It has depth, it has expandability. And while some may not like the graphics, the entire game is easily moddable and third parties have made some incredibly cool stuff for it.

I have no doubt that Dominions 3 will be the same sort of thing. It's a great game.

I also am very certain that there is a significant subset of GalCiv II players who are likely to enjoy Dominions just as I think there's a lot of Dominions players who are likely to enjoy GalCiv.

But more to the point -- we're all on the same side here. Shrapnel and co. are our kind of people. We should do what we can to support them. The world is a better place with games like Dominions.

If fantasy strategy or hard core strategy games like Dominions aren't your cup of tea, that's fine. But I think it's a great game and the people who make it and the community around it is wonderful IMO.

edit: That's the best sort of endorsement I could imagine. I wonder what Sid Meier thinks of Dominions...

Gandalf Parker · #4 August 29th, 2006, 08:47 PM

Wow thats really cool. Ive always thought alot of brad but thats moved up another notch in my opinion.

JaydedOne · #5 August 30th, 2006, 11:19 AM

Brad said:

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I think Domininions 2 is the best fantasy strategy game that has ever been made. It has depth, it has expandability. And while some may not like the graphics, the entire game is easily moddable and third parties have made some incredibly cool stuff for it.

I have no doubt that Dominions 3 will be the same sort of thing. It's a great game.

I also am very certain that there is a significant subset of GalCiv II players who are likely to enjoy Dominions just as I think there's a lot of Dominions players who are likely to enjoy GalCiv.

But more to the point -- we're all on the same side here. Shrapnel and co. are our kind of people. We should do what we can to support them. The world is a better place with games like Dominions.

If fantasy strategy or hard core strategy games like Dominions aren't your cup of tea, that's fine. But I think it's a great game and the people who make it and the community around it is wonderful IMO.

A class act indeed. Not many devs would glow like this about another dev's product, especially when Stardock has long been rumored to be interested in eventually following up on Master of Magic.

But he's right about the fact that these are exactly the games that the community needs to support. I bought both GalCiv 2 and Dom2 because of the fact that they were obviously works built with heart by smaller developers and released against odds in a market that's becoming more and more consolidated and accordingly less willing to challenge thinking gamers. Both games have a number of wrinkles that are easy to point out; but you'd expect that given the fact that they don't have a paid full-time QA team, to say nothing of the inability to pump tons of money into development of graphics, AI, etc. Frankly, I'm thrilled that they're as fantastic as they are and when I ask for improvements, it's with a deep respect for everything accomplished thus far.

DominionsFan · #6 August 30th, 2006, 11:36 AM

Yeah it was a very nice thing from Brad to post news like this about Doms 3.
Oh btw it seems that Brad is visiting these forums. ->

"..But I think it's a great game and the people who make it and the community around it is wonderful IMO..".

BigJMoney · #7 September 2nd, 2006, 11:01 PM

Very, very well put, Archon. I've noticed in many games with strong AI that players confuse good AI for poor AI when it's actually the AI doing something intelligent without the player realizing it. I remember this happening some in Black & White. I've heard numerous tales of designers crafting AI systems that seem to be misbehaving, but then find out later that the AI is actually getting something done in a way the developer never thought of. I'm sure even the largely disappointing Radiant AI of Oblivion achieves this sometimes.

=$= Big J Money =$=

alexti · #8 September 3rd, 2006, 12:19 AM

I've seen it in Dom2 few times too. Something surprising happens and your army faces totally unexpected opposition. Your scripts make no sense anymore, but AI switches the plan and score the victory using tactics you have not even thought about. Unforgettable feeling! Unfortunately it doesn't happen often

Agrajag · #9 September 3rd, 2006, 05:45 AM

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BigJMoney said:
I'm sure even the largely disappointing Radiant AI of Oblivion achieves this sometimes.

I'm sure that woman standing in the middle of the road and staring into a brick wall is up to some serious, tricky, intelligble trouble.

WraithLord · #10 August 29th, 2006, 05:49 PM

You have probably played GC-II considerably longer then I have, for my personal experience with its AI was that it's very tough. Maybe the fact that dominions doesn't support diplomacy has something to do with the GC-II fans complaints

I agree that it's much harder to write an AI to dom since it's more complex (and less motivation to do so, since it's more MP oriented).

Ahhm, I have to say that I share your sentiment of disappointment, it reminds of when I've tried to tell ppl in the AOW forums how great dom is